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<blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 8417193" data-attributes="member: 86653"><p>In that sense, I agree that "realism" is also a goal. But the version of "realism" there is avoidance of rules cruft that pushes absurdities and accepts the messiness of lighter rules that broadly cover everything rather than lots of narrow rules that eventually add up to cover everything. You get a more "realistic" response when the player makes decisions based on the world and their character rather than the rules and trying to game them.</p><p></p><p>Yeah, I love the AW / PBTA games that offer principles for the players and DM. Don't necessarily like all the mechanics involved in those games, but principles are a fantastic way to get the players and DM on the same page. Also prevents everyone having to read into the rules to suss out what the game is about. That way lies madness.</p><p></p><p>I gotta say, I really miss the old DIY aesthetic of RPGs.</p><p></p><p>Sort of. They nervously approach the idea but it's not quite the same.</p><p></p><p>The DM is always allowed to say no. Players just argue about it. The WotC editions of D&D have put a lot more into the players' hands and so we have a generation or two of players who think that's how it should be. That the rules in the books bind the DM and they're not allowed to say no.</p><p></p><p>Sure. But the players will argue. They always do. I think this is one of the reasons you see a return to the notion of DM authority. To explicitly prevent those kinds of things. Players have to be reminded that the DM is the final arbiter, not the book.</p><p></p><p>I don't see how those are connected at all. The players trusting the DM has no bearing on the players trying to optimize the fun out of the game. That's a trait inherent to gamers, like water being wet. The player can have infinite trust in the DM but the player will still try to game the system. High trust as a phrase to use is mostly a stop gap to prevent players used to heavier systems from freaking out about running a rules light or ultralight game. Put trust in the DM to make fair rules and rulings rather than putting trust in the game book. The DM is the one at the table running this game with these players, not the designer in some other city, other state, and other time zone who never has and likely never will even meet these players. The DM knows the players at their table better than the typically nameless, faceless designer. So yeah. Trust the DM. If they show that they don't deserve that trust, walk. You're not eternally binding yourself to this person simply by giving them the benefit of the doubt and some trust up front.</p><p></p><p>I agree with you on playing solo, but couldn't disagree more about player-facing rules. I see literally zero benefits and an endless list of downsides to player-facing rules. Again, the article and video about players optimizing the fun out of the game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="overgeeked, post: 8417193, member: 86653"] In that sense, I agree that "realism" is also a goal. But the version of "realism" there is avoidance of rules cruft that pushes absurdities and accepts the messiness of lighter rules that broadly cover everything rather than lots of narrow rules that eventually add up to cover everything. You get a more "realistic" response when the player makes decisions based on the world and their character rather than the rules and trying to game them. Yeah, I love the AW / PBTA games that offer principles for the players and DM. Don't necessarily like all the mechanics involved in those games, but principles are a fantastic way to get the players and DM on the same page. Also prevents everyone having to read into the rules to suss out what the game is about. That way lies madness. I gotta say, I really miss the old DIY aesthetic of RPGs. Sort of. They nervously approach the idea but it's not quite the same. The DM is always allowed to say no. Players just argue about it. The WotC editions of D&D have put a lot more into the players' hands and so we have a generation or two of players who think that's how it should be. That the rules in the books bind the DM and they're not allowed to say no. Sure. But the players will argue. They always do. I think this is one of the reasons you see a return to the notion of DM authority. To explicitly prevent those kinds of things. Players have to be reminded that the DM is the final arbiter, not the book. I don't see how those are connected at all. The players trusting the DM has no bearing on the players trying to optimize the fun out of the game. That's a trait inherent to gamers, like water being wet. The player can have infinite trust in the DM but the player will still try to game the system. High trust as a phrase to use is mostly a stop gap to prevent players used to heavier systems from freaking out about running a rules light or ultralight game. Put trust in the DM to make fair rules and rulings rather than putting trust in the game book. The DM is the one at the table running this game with these players, not the designer in some other city, other state, and other time zone who never has and likely never will even meet these players. The DM knows the players at their table better than the typically nameless, faceless designer. So yeah. Trust the DM. If they show that they don't deserve that trust, walk. You're not eternally binding yourself to this person simply by giving them the benefit of the doubt and some trust up front. I agree with you on playing solo, but couldn't disagree more about player-facing rules. I see literally zero benefits and an endless list of downsides to player-facing rules. Again, the article and video about players optimizing the fun out of the game. [/QUOTE]
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