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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8417427" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I'm not disagreeing that gameable systems don't yield a tendency for social animals to attempt to game them (or perceive that others will do so and therefore engage with a game theoretical model that pressures them into engaging to game the system).I would never disagree with that as it defies everything my formal life training, work, and everything I've learned outside of that training/work.What I'm disagreeing with the other claim being put forth in this thread (by you and by FKR):More rules = Assured focus of table participants on rules over fiction during table time (and the claim appears to also be that this happens in proportion to rules weight).This is an empirical claim like the other one (that gameable systems yield a tendency for social animals to attempt to game them et al).  This is the claim I'm disputing...because its not true.  Yes, it may be true for a particular population distribution (eg D&D 3.x players who have been inculcated by a TTRPG model that pressures them into gaming a gameable system), but it isn't true across the distribution of (a) all people nor (b) all TTRPG players.  Its trivially not true.  I've run games for probably north of 700 people in my life.  The number of people who I have seen that this holds true for isn't even the majority (its probably just south with an increased tendency to do so depending upon the game; like 3.x D&D combat particularly at level 9+).  In the last 2 years of my life I've GMed for about 40 strangers (many now friends) that I had never interacted with in real life prior to running various games for them (Dogs in the Vineyard, Torchbearer, Mouse Guard, Dungeon World, Apocalypse World, Dread, Blades in the Dark, Scum and Villainy, Aliens, Lady Blackbird, Sorcerer, My Life With Master, Aliens...I may be forgetting one or two).  Many of these games are rules heavy (and others are lite to medium).Of those 40 strangers, the number of them that hew to the "more rules = assured focus of table participant on rules over fiction" = zero.  Zilch.  Nada.</blockquote>

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