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<blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 8419480" data-attributes="member: 86653"><p>And since the DM is free to ignore the rules on a whim and/or adjust the DCs as they see fit, they amount to the same thing. The DM decides. Either they decide it works, it doesn't work, or they give you a chance and ask for a roll. The player's agency is limited to what they decide to do. The player controls their actions, not their actions' outcomes. That's the purview of the DM. Agency is choice of actions, not narrative control of the outcomes of those actions. If the DM sets the DC at 15, that's up to the DM. Likewise if they set the DC at 45, that's up to the DM. There's no appeal to the rulebook the player can make to force the DM to pick a different DC. The player has no recourse but to accept the DM's ruling or gather their stuff and walk.</p><p></p><p>Can but shouldn't as explained below.</p><p></p><p>Not really, no. Again, the DM can decide mid-cast that any number of things happen. Counterspell, wild magic surge, etc. Or simply decide that this one fireball is different somehow. Or that the circumstances right now (that the PCs and/or players are completely unaware of) changes how things work. But, the players trust the DM generally won't do those things or if they do, the players trust that the DM will explain why at some point.</p><p></p><p>What does a fireball do when cast into a space smaller than it's AoE? That's pure DM fiat. You expect the DM to rule that fairly. You trust them. How long does it take fire to catch on something wet? That's pure DM fiat. You expect the DM to rule that fairly. You trust them.</p><p></p><p>Right. You <strong><em>can</em></strong>, but you <strong><em>shouldn't</em></strong>. Why? Because it breaks the players' trust. And DMs <em><strong>really</strong></em> don't want to break the players' trust. Why? Because if they do the entire house of cards, shared delusion, shared fiction, suspension of disbelief crumbles. Maintaining that is all about trust. Literally the whole of the hobby is about trust. The players have to trust the DM to be fair and run and interesting and engaging world. You have to trust these other humans with your time. Trust these other humans in your house.</p><p></p><p>This is why it's silly that trust is somehow a bugbear word now. In traditional games the DM is in complete control of literally everything and you generally trust them not to be a jerk. Yet, somehow trusting the DM not to be a jerk is now this weird, scary thing. Pick one. Either you trust the DM or you don't. You don't get it both ways. (General you, of course.)</p><p></p><p>And since the DM can freely change that on a whim...the players have effectively the same agency in both. There is no appeal to the rules the player can make that forces a DM to relent if they do something the player doesn't like. Only the social contract, breaking trust, and the players' voting with their feet.</p><p></p><p>The point is that the rules don't provide the agency for the players. For every thing you can point to in the rules that says "this is how this functions" there's a line in the DMG or otherwise that says the DM is in charge. It's the DM's show from start to finish. What races and spells you can pick, DM fiat. Roll stats or array or point buy, DM fiat. Max hit points or rolls or averages, DM fiat. What the monsters can or cannot do, DM fiat. The shape of the planet you're on, or whether you're even on a planet at all, DM fiat. The house rules, if any...DM fiat. The setting and world and monsters and factions and NPCs...yep, still all DM fiat. The only agency traditional games give the players is their character creation options and choice of actions...which are also constrained by DM fiat. That's literally identical to what the FKR game being used as an example gives the players.</p><p></p><p>Your constant pointing to the rulebook as some kind of source of player agency is the gamer equivalent to an appeal to authority. The book isn't in charge of the game as played at the table...the DM is. The DM can default to the rules, if they want to. Or they can ignore the rules entirely. Again, the players' only choice is to go along and play or walk. The rulebook isn't a charm person scroll you can activate by thumping it to magically compel the DM to do something you want.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="overgeeked, post: 8419480, member: 86653"] And since the DM is free to ignore the rules on a whim and/or adjust the DCs as they see fit, they amount to the same thing. The DM decides. Either they decide it works, it doesn't work, or they give you a chance and ask for a roll. The player's agency is limited to what they decide to do. The player controls their actions, not their actions' outcomes. That's the purview of the DM. Agency is choice of actions, not narrative control of the outcomes of those actions. If the DM sets the DC at 15, that's up to the DM. Likewise if they set the DC at 45, that's up to the DM. There's no appeal to the rulebook the player can make to force the DM to pick a different DC. The player has no recourse but to accept the DM's ruling or gather their stuff and walk. Can but shouldn't as explained below. Not really, no. Again, the DM can decide mid-cast that any number of things happen. Counterspell, wild magic surge, etc. Or simply decide that this one fireball is different somehow. Or that the circumstances right now (that the PCs and/or players are completely unaware of) changes how things work. But, the players trust the DM generally won't do those things or if they do, the players trust that the DM will explain why at some point. What does a fireball do when cast into a space smaller than it's AoE? That's pure DM fiat. You expect the DM to rule that fairly. You trust them. How long does it take fire to catch on something wet? That's pure DM fiat. You expect the DM to rule that fairly. You trust them. Right. You [B][I]can[/I][/B], but you [B][I]shouldn't[/I][/B]. Why? Because it breaks the players' trust. And DMs [I][B]really[/B][/I] don't want to break the players' trust. Why? Because if they do the entire house of cards, shared delusion, shared fiction, suspension of disbelief crumbles. Maintaining that is all about trust. Literally the whole of the hobby is about trust. The players have to trust the DM to be fair and run and interesting and engaging world. You have to trust these other humans with your time. Trust these other humans in your house. This is why it's silly that trust is somehow a bugbear word now. In traditional games the DM is in complete control of literally everything and you generally trust them not to be a jerk. Yet, somehow trusting the DM not to be a jerk is now this weird, scary thing. Pick one. Either you trust the DM or you don't. You don't get it both ways. (General you, of course.) And since the DM can freely change that on a whim...the players have effectively the same agency in both. There is no appeal to the rules the player can make that forces a DM to relent if they do something the player doesn't like. Only the social contract, breaking trust, and the players' voting with their feet. The point is that the rules don't provide the agency for the players. For every thing you can point to in the rules that says "this is how this functions" there's a line in the DMG or otherwise that says the DM is in charge. It's the DM's show from start to finish. What races and spells you can pick, DM fiat. Roll stats or array or point buy, DM fiat. Max hit points or rolls or averages, DM fiat. What the monsters can or cannot do, DM fiat. The shape of the planet you're on, or whether you're even on a planet at all, DM fiat. The house rules, if any...DM fiat. The setting and world and monsters and factions and NPCs...yep, still all DM fiat. The only agency traditional games give the players is their character creation options and choice of actions...which are also constrained by DM fiat. That's literally identical to what the FKR game being used as an example gives the players. Your constant pointing to the rulebook as some kind of source of player agency is the gamer equivalent to an appeal to authority. The book isn't in charge of the game as played at the table...the DM is. The DM can default to the rules, if they want to. Or they can ignore the rules entirely. Again, the players' only choice is to go along and play or walk. The rulebook isn't a charm person scroll you can activate by thumping it to magically compel the DM to do something you want. [/QUOTE]
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