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<blockquote data-quote="Malmuria" data-source="post: 8419865" data-attributes="member: 7030755"><p>First I don't experience the type of games I sometimes play--OSR dnd type games--as being a "story told by someone else" or that I tell to someone else. Someone else might look at the gameplay loop of a dungeon crawl (for example) and find it lacking in player agency because the player can only announce their actions. To me, that's an over simplification to say the least; I suppose I can see how one formally arrives at that position, but in practice is not how I experience those sorts of games. Phrases like "high trust" might be unhelpful if they imply a character flaw. But I'm not claiming that, I'm not sure who is. It's pretty reasonable, when playing a game, that you want to turn to a neutral reference point, such as the rules, to facilitate your playing of the game. The reasonableness of that position is not in question for me. What's in question is how many of those reference points you can remove and still have a functional and enjoyable game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That sounds great. I've purchased the Agon book, who knows when I'll get a chance to run it. I understand what you mean by certain games setting out paths for both players and gms to establish and shape the shared fiction. On the other hand, there are games that more or less put the establishment of the fiction in the hands of the dm, and the players play particular characters, usually just one at a time, in that fiction. I think it's an exaggeration to claim those games are "zero agency," because the players have control of their characters, and confusing because within that framework the term agency has a different and more specific connotation than "establishing the fiction" of the world. (btw if "low trust" is pejorative then so is "zero agency" imo)</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's a six page pdf; it doesn't tell us a lot of things! I suppose we can assume that all the questions you pose are necessary to playing the game, and then further assume that the answers to all the self-posed questions are as you describe, then characterize that situation as zero-agency when placed in comparison to an unrelated and completely different type of game like Agon.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is quite debatable. Remember the game loop in question is</p><p>1. The DM describes the environment.</p><p>2. The players describe what they want their characters to do.</p><p>3. The DM narrates the results of their actions.</p><p></p><p>That's the loop that supposedly results in zero agency. It supposedly results in zero agency, because the player can describe what they want their characters to do, but have no authority to determine how the world reacts. The reference to a rulebook, when it comes to determining how much damage a fireball does or what roll to make when opening a stuck door, is what the DM does to help "narrate the result of their [the PCs] actions." The player is not entitled to look at a dms notes. The HP and AC of a given monster are a suggestion that a DM can adjust. etc. I would agree, however, that best practice is to stick to the rulebook unless you have a good, ideally previously-thought-out and written-down reason to diverge from it, because if your world and rulings are not consistent your players will start to lose trust in it and in you, and trust is very important for that kind of game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Malmuria, post: 8419865, member: 7030755"] First I don't experience the type of games I sometimes play--OSR dnd type games--as being a "story told by someone else" or that I tell to someone else. Someone else might look at the gameplay loop of a dungeon crawl (for example) and find it lacking in player agency because the player can only announce their actions. To me, that's an over simplification to say the least; I suppose I can see how one formally arrives at that position, but in practice is not how I experience those sorts of games. Phrases like "high trust" might be unhelpful if they imply a character flaw. But I'm not claiming that, I'm not sure who is. It's pretty reasonable, when playing a game, that you want to turn to a neutral reference point, such as the rules, to facilitate your playing of the game. The reasonableness of that position is not in question for me. What's in question is how many of those reference points you can remove and still have a functional and enjoyable game. That sounds great. I've purchased the Agon book, who knows when I'll get a chance to run it. I understand what you mean by certain games setting out paths for both players and gms to establish and shape the shared fiction. On the other hand, there are games that more or less put the establishment of the fiction in the hands of the dm, and the players play particular characters, usually just one at a time, in that fiction. I think it's an exaggeration to claim those games are "zero agency," because the players have control of their characters, and confusing because within that framework the term agency has a different and more specific connotation than "establishing the fiction" of the world. (btw if "low trust" is pejorative then so is "zero agency" imo) It's a six page pdf; it doesn't tell us a lot of things! I suppose we can assume that all the questions you pose are necessary to playing the game, and then further assume that the answers to all the self-posed questions are as you describe, then characterize that situation as zero-agency when placed in comparison to an unrelated and completely different type of game like Agon. This is quite debatable. Remember the game loop in question is 1. The DM describes the environment. 2. The players describe what they want their characters to do. 3. The DM narrates the results of their actions. That's the loop that supposedly results in zero agency. It supposedly results in zero agency, because the player can describe what they want their characters to do, but have no authority to determine how the world reacts. The reference to a rulebook, when it comes to determining how much damage a fireball does or what roll to make when opening a stuck door, is what the DM does to help "narrate the result of their [the PCs] actions." The player is not entitled to look at a dms notes. The HP and AC of a given monster are a suggestion that a DM can adjust. etc. I would agree, however, that best practice is to stick to the rulebook unless you have a good, ideally previously-thought-out and written-down reason to diverge from it, because if your world and rulings are not consistent your players will start to lose trust in it and in you, and trust is very important for that kind of game. [/QUOTE]
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