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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8419955" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p><em>Say something to prompt someone else to say something</em> might be a perfectly functional, enjoyable game. But it won't be the same game as any of the RPGs I enjoy.</p><p></p><p>When you play a dungeon crawl, is the GM allowed to change the dungeon map at will? If you have entered a room via an open archway, and then declare that you leave the room the same way, is the GM free to tell you that you don't leave? That you suffer a leg cramp and fall to your knees?</p><p></p><p>The dungeon crawl games I'm familiar with (Moldvay Basic and AD&D, which many OSR games are based one) do not follow you posted play loop. They go something closer to this:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">1. The DM describes the environment.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">2. The players describe what they want their characters to do.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">3. The DM refers to the map and key.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">4. The DM extrapolates from the map and key where the PC goes (if moving) and/or what bits of architecture, furniture or similar that the PC discovers and/or touches. If the DM is not clear about what the PC is doing relative to the geography and architecture, the DM might seek clarificatoin from the player.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">5. The DM calls for an appropriate roll if a relevant subsystem is triggered (eg opening a door; climbing a wall), or makes an appropriate roll if a relevant subsystem is triggered (eg searching for a trap or secret door, or listening at a door), or extrapolates the immediate result as faithfully and neutrally as they can if the action is moving things, lifting things, poking things, etc.</p><p></p><p>I think that's still probably incomplete, but is closer to what Gygax and Moldvay describe in their rulebooks.</p><p></p><p>I don't want to be mean, but this is just wrong for huge swathes of RPGs, including so-called "trad" ones.</p><p></p><p>In Rolemaster, establishing the fiction is not all in the hands of the GM. Eg if a player has their PC talk to a NPC, then if the upshot is contested (eg the player wants to befriend the NPC and the GM doesn't just go along with this) there is an expectation that the Influence and Interaction table will be used. This, in turn, dictates how the NPC responds. Ie the GM has neither sole nor unconstrained authority over the fiction.</p><p></p><p>Many similar examples could be given for RM, and for other games of a broadly similar character.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8419955, member: 42582"] [i]Say something to prompt someone else to say something[/i] might be a perfectly functional, enjoyable game. But it won't be the same game as any of the RPGs I enjoy. When you play a dungeon crawl, is the GM allowed to change the dungeon map at will? If you have entered a room via an open archway, and then declare that you leave the room the same way, is the GM free to tell you that you don't leave? That you suffer a leg cramp and fall to your knees? The dungeon crawl games I'm familiar with (Moldvay Basic and AD&D, which many OSR games are based one) do not follow you posted play loop. They go something closer to this: [indent]1. The DM describes the environment. 2. The players describe what they want their characters to do. 3. The DM refers to the map and key. 4. The DM extrapolates from the map and key where the PC goes (if moving) and/or what bits of architecture, furniture or similar that the PC discovers and/or touches. If the DM is not clear about what the PC is doing relative to the geography and architecture, the DM might seek clarificatoin from the player. 5. The DM calls for an appropriate roll if a relevant subsystem is triggered (eg opening a door; climbing a wall), or makes an appropriate roll if a relevant subsystem is triggered (eg searching for a trap or secret door, or listening at a door), or extrapolates the immediate result as faithfully and neutrally as they can if the action is moving things, lifting things, poking things, etc.[/indent] I think that's still probably incomplete, but is closer to what Gygax and Moldvay describe in their rulebooks. I don't want to be mean, but this is just wrong for huge swathes of RPGs, including so-called "trad" ones. In Rolemaster, establishing the fiction is not all in the hands of the GM. Eg if a player has their PC talk to a NPC, then if the upshot is contested (eg the player wants to befriend the NPC and the GM doesn't just go along with this) there is an expectation that the Influence and Interaction table will be used. This, in turn, dictates how the NPC responds. Ie the GM has neither sole nor unconstrained authority over the fiction. Many similar examples could be given for RM, and for other games of a broadly similar character. [/QUOTE]
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