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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8424987" data-attributes="member: 42582">Who do you think does treat conversation as mind control? On the other hand, it's the only way most people have to influence others, and there's a lot of that going about!And who do you think is saying that the player can just throw dice and declare a result? That looks like a description (maybe a caricature? I'm not sure) of 3E D&D social resolution. But I don't think there is a single poster in this thread who would use 3E D&D's social resolution framework as an example of anything but bad design.I just reread the last 4 pages of The Killing Joke, because I had a memory that it involves a conversation between The Joker and The Batman. My memory was correct. I think maybe this is an example of what [USER=6785785]@hawkeyefan[/USER] has in mind - how do we work out what The Joker does, in response to Batman's offer to rehabilitate him?Presumably rehabilitation of supervillains isn't out of the question - Magneto and The Gladiator are the two examples I think of right away - and I don't see The Joker as a priori out of the question in this respect.I don't think that a roll-based mechanic is the only way to drive character development and change, but it's one obvious one. And I don't think that fidelity to the GM's vision is the only way to accurately represent established characters from pop culture.I'm not sure why we need the dice in the case of a fight. Has The Batman ever lost to The Joker in a round of fisticuffs?This isn't really my experience. I've not played Fiasco. But when I've played games that give the players a lot of authority over the fiction (eg my approach to Cthulhu Dark; or most recently my friend and I playing a two-player shared-GM game of Burning Wheel, where each frames the adversity for the other's PC) there hasn't been the sort of problem you're describing.</blockquote>

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