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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 8427354" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>Yes, I realize that. But it's not one that any group expects to be used all the time. It's not meant to be applied willy nilly. The spirit of that rule is that you should alter things to suit the situation or the specific group of players as needed. There's no need to be slavishly loyal to the rules as written. </p><p></p><p>If a GM used this in the manner you're implying....where he's just usurping the rules and the players' expectations without valid reasons for doing so....that's just bad GMing.</p><p></p><p>And then again, there are many games that specifically don't allow this. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is no certainty. It's an approximation. The dice are what makes it uncertain. I think you're underestimating peoples' ability to know the odds of success for a given task. </p><p></p><p>But even still.....the numbers are doing the same job that the GM's verbal description is meant to do, right? The PC wants to climb a wall...that's the stated goal. Whether we use numbers or words to convey this to the player....really, what's the difference? </p><p></p><p>For me, the numbers are more accurate, and closer to correlating with how the character would feel about the task.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think it depends on the game, and even the edition of D&D. In modern iterations of the game my answer would be no, the DM is not neutral. Not in the sense that the term had been used earlier on. </p><p></p><p>I think most editions of D&D hew closer to the level of control by the GM that FKR games seem to, but probably not quite as far. FKR seems to take the already authority heavy role of the GM in D&D and increase it. But that's generally speaking; I would expect some variance among specific FKR games.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, it's problematic plain and simple.</p><p></p><p>Let's say our party of PCs runs into a dragon. Oh no, we're all gonna crap our pants! Oh ho, not me.....I made my save!</p><p></p><p>If the DM then tells me "You did....but the dragon fear still affects you. You can't take actions other than to flee!" I see that as a problem, and I expect most folks would agree. Yes, he is technically allowed to do this as you've pointed out, but that doesn't change the fact that this is problematic.</p><p></p><p>It's crappy GMing. And taking this over to FKR, the main difference to me seems to be that the players would simply not be aware that this BS was going on, where as in D&D they very well may. And in many other games, it would be immediately obvious, and at least poor form, if not outright cheating. </p><p></p><p>Why would a neutral GM feel the need to override the rules? To what purpose? What does hiding the rules really accomplish in these situations?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, this would be very similar to what I'd say about all game design over the past few decades. They've seen a lot of the mistakes in action and can design with the intent of avoiding them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 8427354, member: 6785785"] Yes, I realize that. But it's not one that any group expects to be used all the time. It's not meant to be applied willy nilly. The spirit of that rule is that you should alter things to suit the situation or the specific group of players as needed. There's no need to be slavishly loyal to the rules as written. If a GM used this in the manner you're implying....where he's just usurping the rules and the players' expectations without valid reasons for doing so....that's just bad GMing. And then again, there are many games that specifically don't allow this. There is no certainty. It's an approximation. The dice are what makes it uncertain. I think you're underestimating peoples' ability to know the odds of success for a given task. But even still.....the numbers are doing the same job that the GM's verbal description is meant to do, right? The PC wants to climb a wall...that's the stated goal. Whether we use numbers or words to convey this to the player....really, what's the difference? For me, the numbers are more accurate, and closer to correlating with how the character would feel about the task. I think it depends on the game, and even the edition of D&D. In modern iterations of the game my answer would be no, the DM is not neutral. Not in the sense that the term had been used earlier on. I think most editions of D&D hew closer to the level of control by the GM that FKR games seem to, but probably not quite as far. FKR seems to take the already authority heavy role of the GM in D&D and increase it. But that's generally speaking; I would expect some variance among specific FKR games. No, it's problematic plain and simple. Let's say our party of PCs runs into a dragon. Oh no, we're all gonna crap our pants! Oh ho, not me.....I made my save! If the DM then tells me "You did....but the dragon fear still affects you. You can't take actions other than to flee!" I see that as a problem, and I expect most folks would agree. Yes, he is technically allowed to do this as you've pointed out, but that doesn't change the fact that this is problematic. It's crappy GMing. And taking this over to FKR, the main difference to me seems to be that the players would simply not be aware that this BS was going on, where as in D&D they very well may. And in many other games, it would be immediately obvious, and at least poor form, if not outright cheating. Why would a neutral GM feel the need to override the rules? To what purpose? What does hiding the rules really accomplish in these situations? Sure, this would be very similar to what I'd say about all game design over the past few decades. They've seen a lot of the mistakes in action and can design with the intent of avoiding them. [/QUOTE]
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