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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 8427988" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>I'm not sure if FKR overall would not be good for me. There were a few games labeled as FKR on Itch that were linked earlier that I thought were pretty cool, and would likely be willing to play. </p><p></p><p>But I think you're right that I don't trust the process as it's been generally described here and in some of the blogs that have been linked. However, I don't think it's a case of not being able to trust the process: I think it's quite possible that I could. However, I want to actually understand the process before deciding to trust it. I don't really see the need for blind trust in this regard.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think the idea of this being a "high trust game type" is a bit misleading. Because every game proceeds with the expectation that the participants can be trusted, or at least every game should. You generally don't expect people to cheat or to subvert the rules. </p><p></p><p>Where the trust seems to be needed in FKR style games is that players need to trust that the GM will abdicate fairly and with integrity, but that the means of doing so are either unknown, or are more nebulous than they may be in other games. Just about every game calls for the GM to abdicate fairly and with integrity, so that's not the concern. Instead it's the lack of specific tools at the GM's disposal to help do so. </p><p></p><p>It's like if I'm in a burning building and two firemen are coming to help me. One is decked out in his jacket and harness with airtank and all the associated gear....and the other is in sweat pants. I don't mistrust either of them, but I expect one to be able to do the expected job better.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I definitely agree there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This to me seems less about trust than it is about expertise. I don't think that players should have the expectation that the GM will always know more about a given topic than them, and so will always be able to portray a scene/obstacle/situation with enough accuracy to be plausible and acceptable to the player. GMs aren't experts at everything. This is where I think the label of FKR is a bit misleading because it evokes the referee from the Kriegsspiel games who actually were experts at the subject matter of their games. </p><p></p><p>Janne in your example was not doing anything wrong from his perspective. He was proceeding with integrity. In that sense, he didn't betray the trust of the participants. It was not about integrity, though, but about ability. Where Janne failed, if we can describe it as such, was to be as knowledgeable about combat as an actual trained combatant. Why would we ever expect that of a GM?</p><p></p><p>Correlating actual military experience and tactical knowledge to referee a wargame with basic genre logic to referee any scenario is a bit simplistic. Should players really trust the GM in a FKR RPG in the same way that players in a Kriegsspiel game could trust their referee? </p><p></p><p>In this case, the trust is not about adherence to rules and processes and refereeing with integrity.....but more about accuracy. About actual knowledge or expertise, about their ability to convince all players that what they've just made up is reasonable and fair.</p><p></p><p>I think that's why saying it's about trust is a bit odd. I expect the GM to mess up, I don't expect them to be experts on every topic they may need to portray in a game. I want them to involve me in that process. I want to understand and be involved in establishing the process the GM will use when running the game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 8427988, member: 6785785"] I'm not sure if FKR overall would not be good for me. There were a few games labeled as FKR on Itch that were linked earlier that I thought were pretty cool, and would likely be willing to play. But I think you're right that I don't trust the process as it's been generally described here and in some of the blogs that have been linked. However, I don't think it's a case of not being able to trust the process: I think it's quite possible that I could. However, I want to actually understand the process before deciding to trust it. I don't really see the need for blind trust in this regard. I think the idea of this being a "high trust game type" is a bit misleading. Because every game proceeds with the expectation that the participants can be trusted, or at least every game should. You generally don't expect people to cheat or to subvert the rules. Where the trust seems to be needed in FKR style games is that players need to trust that the GM will abdicate fairly and with integrity, but that the means of doing so are either unknown, or are more nebulous than they may be in other games. Just about every game calls for the GM to abdicate fairly and with integrity, so that's not the concern. Instead it's the lack of specific tools at the GM's disposal to help do so. It's like if I'm in a burning building and two firemen are coming to help me. One is decked out in his jacket and harness with airtank and all the associated gear....and the other is in sweat pants. I don't mistrust either of them, but I expect one to be able to do the expected job better. I definitely agree there. This to me seems less about trust than it is about expertise. I don't think that players should have the expectation that the GM will always know more about a given topic than them, and so will always be able to portray a scene/obstacle/situation with enough accuracy to be plausible and acceptable to the player. GMs aren't experts at everything. This is where I think the label of FKR is a bit misleading because it evokes the referee from the Kriegsspiel games who actually were experts at the subject matter of their games. Janne in your example was not doing anything wrong from his perspective. He was proceeding with integrity. In that sense, he didn't betray the trust of the participants. It was not about integrity, though, but about ability. Where Janne failed, if we can describe it as such, was to be as knowledgeable about combat as an actual trained combatant. Why would we ever expect that of a GM? Correlating actual military experience and tactical knowledge to referee a wargame with basic genre logic to referee any scenario is a bit simplistic. Should players really trust the GM in a FKR RPG in the same way that players in a Kriegsspiel game could trust their referee? In this case, the trust is not about adherence to rules and processes and refereeing with integrity.....but more about accuracy. About actual knowledge or expertise, about their ability to convince all players that what they've just made up is reasonable and fair. I think that's why saying it's about trust is a bit odd. I expect the GM to mess up, I don't expect them to be experts on every topic they may need to portray in a game. I want them to involve me in that process. I want to understand and be involved in establishing the process the GM will use when running the game. [/QUOTE]
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