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<blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 8428059" data-attributes="member: 86653"><p>You're still assuming that your ultimate bad faith out-to-get-you DM is the same thing as what I'm talking about. They're different things. As I've said. A few times now.</p><p></p><p>And again. The rules are known. The rules are: roll 2d6, higher is better. In most FKR games that's literally the entire game system right there. There are no rules that are hidden. What you're railing against is that the Referee has the authority to set the difficulty of a task <em>without</em> precisely explaining exactly how they come to that decision in every moment and telling you exactly what your odds of success are <em>before</em> you make a roll. What you assume is bad faith player from the Referee and you expect that they owe you an explanation up front. That attitude is untenable in the majority of games, but especially in ones with high DM/GM/Ref authority. This style of play is clearly not for you. There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has their preferences. But if this is how you think things should be, you're never going to be comfortable enough with the style to give it anything approaching an honest chance. At the table or in discussion.</p><p></p><p>Yes. Exactly so. To inform the character of the obstacle before them and thus inform the player (as much as is relevant and possible) what their chances of success are.</p><p></p><p>But that's exactly how it's achieved. The goal is to inform the player...<em><strong>the means of delivery is precise numbers</strong></em>...which the character wouldn't have. I've no problem informing the character and player of what's before them. That's the point of describing things. My objection is solely with the means of delivery. Precise numbers break immersion. The character wouldn't have those precise numbers. It puts the game mechanics front and center instead of the character and the world. Getting back to the FKR and their mantras, "play world, not rules," is often repeated. This is part of that. The world isn't going to spit out a display informing the character that they have 57.9% chance of accomplishing a task...unless you're playing in a world that does. But the majority won't have that. So, since the world isn't going to do that...there's no reason to do that at the table. You want the game mechanics to be centered. That's the opposite of what the FKR is after. They want the play, the character, the world to be centered. What you want and what the FKR want are opposites. Again, there's nothing wrong with that. But you're literally accusing DMs/GMs/Referees of bad faith play and cheating...simply because they're playing in a style different than what you expect. They're not having badwrongfun, they're having not-for-hawkeyefan fun. There's nothing wrong with that. So why are you so insistent? Just accept that it's not a style for you.</p><p></p><p>You are literally the only person here claiming that is what DM/GM/Referee authority is about. Just you. No one else. I've already agreed that changing the rules after a result would otherwise be known is bad form. Yet you still insist that's what I'm after. It's not. I don't know how many other ways or times I can tell you that.</p><p></p><p>Yes. Exactly like most other high-GM authority RPGs.</p><p></p><p>Yes. Exactly like most other high-GM authority RPGs.</p><p></p><p>When I've seen opposed rolls used, it's in the open. But here's the thing. From your posts, I would assume that you would demand that the Referee roll first so that you know exactly what your chances are. It's entirely up the the Referee when to roll. If they insisted that the player rolled first what would you do and why?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="overgeeked, post: 8428059, member: 86653"] You're still assuming that your ultimate bad faith out-to-get-you DM is the same thing as what I'm talking about. They're different things. As I've said. A few times now. And again. The rules are known. The rules are: roll 2d6, higher is better. In most FKR games that's literally the entire game system right there. There are no rules that are hidden. What you're railing against is that the Referee has the authority to set the difficulty of a task [I]without[/I] precisely explaining exactly how they come to that decision in every moment and telling you exactly what your odds of success are [I]before[/I] you make a roll. What you assume is bad faith player from the Referee and you expect that they owe you an explanation up front. That attitude is untenable in the majority of games, but especially in ones with high DM/GM/Ref authority. This style of play is clearly not for you. There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has their preferences. But if this is how you think things should be, you're never going to be comfortable enough with the style to give it anything approaching an honest chance. At the table or in discussion. Yes. Exactly so. To inform the character of the obstacle before them and thus inform the player (as much as is relevant and possible) what their chances of success are. But that's exactly how it's achieved. The goal is to inform the player...[I][B]the means of delivery is precise numbers[/B][/I]...which the character wouldn't have. I've no problem informing the character and player of what's before them. That's the point of describing things. My objection is solely with the means of delivery. Precise numbers break immersion. The character wouldn't have those precise numbers. It puts the game mechanics front and center instead of the character and the world. Getting back to the FKR and their mantras, "play world, not rules," is often repeated. This is part of that. The world isn't going to spit out a display informing the character that they have 57.9% chance of accomplishing a task...unless you're playing in a world that does. But the majority won't have that. So, since the world isn't going to do that...there's no reason to do that at the table. You want the game mechanics to be centered. That's the opposite of what the FKR is after. They want the play, the character, the world to be centered. What you want and what the FKR want are opposites. Again, there's nothing wrong with that. But you're literally accusing DMs/GMs/Referees of bad faith play and cheating...simply because they're playing in a style different than what you expect. They're not having badwrongfun, they're having not-for-hawkeyefan fun. There's nothing wrong with that. So why are you so insistent? Just accept that it's not a style for you. You are literally the only person here claiming that is what DM/GM/Referee authority is about. Just you. No one else. I've already agreed that changing the rules after a result would otherwise be known is bad form. Yet you still insist that's what I'm after. It's not. I don't know how many other ways or times I can tell you that. Yes. Exactly like most other high-GM authority RPGs. Yes. Exactly like most other high-GM authority RPGs. When I've seen opposed rolls used, it's in the open. But here's the thing. From your posts, I would assume that you would demand that the Referee roll first so that you know exactly what your chances are. It's entirely up the the Referee when to roll. If they insisted that the player rolled first what would you do and why? [/QUOTE]
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