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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 8428355" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>No one at all is suggesting this is how it's done. My comment here was in response to your continued mentioning of rule zero in D&D, and how that makes D&D no different because the rules can simply vanish at the GM's whim.</p><p></p><p>I refuted that point by explaining no one likes or expects rule zero to be used that way. I also cited the many games that don't grant the GM such authority. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I mean, that's a pretty telling statement right there. </p><p></p><p>I do think that in a game, players of all kinds should be bound by rules. The rules can be different for different types of participants. When kids play tag, there are different rules for the kid who's "It" than for everyone else. </p><p></p><p>The idea that the rules are there to thwart the GM is, to me, a huge red flag. </p><p></p><p>Do you think that the rules exist to thwart players?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But players? Assume bad faith toward those dirty gamers immediately, right?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's absolutely tenable. There's absolutely nothing stopping a GM in D&D from sharing every single DC with his players before they roll. It's a perfectly tenable way to play the game. I know this because I've seen it first hand. And D&D is a very high GM authority game. I actually would have put it just about at the top of the list, until this thread.</p><p></p><p>There are also games where there's nothing hidden from the players. Apocalypse World has a known resolution mechanic. Blades in the Dark is all negotiated clearly before a roll is made. Alien and Mutant Year Zero and the games that use that system, roll a pool of d6s, if you roll a 6 at all, you succeed. Spire and Heart use a pool of D10s, with tiered success based on the highest roll. All of these games are not only perfectly tenable, but I think they also largely address a lot of the concerns about D&D that the FKR seems to be attempting to address.</p><p></p><p>To me, these processes and means of determining outcomes....these are rules. They're fundamental to how the game plays.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's possible that it may not be for me. Certainly, some examples are not for me. That "diceless combat" example that was posted seems like the opposite of what I'd like an RPG to be. But there were some games linked on Itch that have the FKR tag that seemed fun or playable....or at the very least wouldn't make me smash my face into the table. </p><p></p><p>But for discussion, I'm giving it an honest chance. I'm asking questions. I'm poking at it. I'm actively interrogating it. I see some of the appeal, but others I'm just not seeing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I get that you don't like the precise numbers. My point was that being precise wasn't the goal so much as trying to give the player as accurate an assessment of the situation as possible to that of the character. The GM is going to use certain words when doing this. Those words are very often going to fail to convey as clear a picture as needed. </p><p></p><p>So codifying them in some way....with a DC or some similar means....actually serves to help me immerse. My character is going to know the situation that's facing them. I want my knowledge as a player to be as close to that as possible. I don't want there to be misinterpretation based on the specific words chosen by the GM. That's far more likely to break my immersion. </p><p></p><p>Now, this I will say is largely a matter of preference. You don't like precision, and it's more important to you to risk lack of clarity in order to avoid too much clarity. However, as many others have already posted, I think perhaps you're underestimating the human mind and how it's doing these kinds of calculations and determinations all the time, and how accurate people can be, especially with tasks they've trained for. Precision in that regard doesn't seem problematic at all.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't need nor necessarily want the mechanics to be front and center. I just think they should be known. </p><p></p><p>And no, I'm not saying that anyone running FKR is cheating or having badwrongfun. My concern is how running an FKR game in a principled manner must be very difficult. </p><p></p><p>In an attempt to move things forward a bit, do you have any examples of what you do or how you remain principled in your GMing when running FKR style? I know the basics of like "lean on genre", but do you have an example of play that you could share?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So why does the GM roll in the open? Why not roll behind a screen and then just observe the player roll, and then let them know what happens?</p><p></p><p>For an opposed roll, no I wouldn't demand the GM roll first; why would I do that? There's no impact on my decision making at that point, and the odds are known to me because we're both just rolling 2d6 and seeing who gets higher. Unless there are modifiers in place; then I'd like to know that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 8428355, member: 6785785"] No one at all is suggesting this is how it's done. My comment here was in response to your continued mentioning of rule zero in D&D, and how that makes D&D no different because the rules can simply vanish at the GM's whim. I refuted that point by explaining no one likes or expects rule zero to be used that way. I also cited the many games that don't grant the GM such authority. I mean, that's a pretty telling statement right there. I do think that in a game, players of all kinds should be bound by rules. The rules can be different for different types of participants. When kids play tag, there are different rules for the kid who's "It" than for everyone else. The idea that the rules are there to thwart the GM is, to me, a huge red flag. Do you think that the rules exist to thwart players? But players? Assume bad faith toward those dirty gamers immediately, right? It's absolutely tenable. There's absolutely nothing stopping a GM in D&D from sharing every single DC with his players before they roll. It's a perfectly tenable way to play the game. I know this because I've seen it first hand. And D&D is a very high GM authority game. I actually would have put it just about at the top of the list, until this thread. There are also games where there's nothing hidden from the players. Apocalypse World has a known resolution mechanic. Blades in the Dark is all negotiated clearly before a roll is made. Alien and Mutant Year Zero and the games that use that system, roll a pool of d6s, if you roll a 6 at all, you succeed. Spire and Heart use a pool of D10s, with tiered success based on the highest roll. All of these games are not only perfectly tenable, but I think they also largely address a lot of the concerns about D&D that the FKR seems to be attempting to address. To me, these processes and means of determining outcomes....these are rules. They're fundamental to how the game plays. It's possible that it may not be for me. Certainly, some examples are not for me. That "diceless combat" example that was posted seems like the opposite of what I'd like an RPG to be. But there were some games linked on Itch that have the FKR tag that seemed fun or playable....or at the very least wouldn't make me smash my face into the table. But for discussion, I'm giving it an honest chance. I'm asking questions. I'm poking at it. I'm actively interrogating it. I see some of the appeal, but others I'm just not seeing. I get that you don't like the precise numbers. My point was that being precise wasn't the goal so much as trying to give the player as accurate an assessment of the situation as possible to that of the character. The GM is going to use certain words when doing this. Those words are very often going to fail to convey as clear a picture as needed. So codifying them in some way....with a DC or some similar means....actually serves to help me immerse. My character is going to know the situation that's facing them. I want my knowledge as a player to be as close to that as possible. I don't want there to be misinterpretation based on the specific words chosen by the GM. That's far more likely to break my immersion. Now, this I will say is largely a matter of preference. You don't like precision, and it's more important to you to risk lack of clarity in order to avoid too much clarity. However, as many others have already posted, I think perhaps you're underestimating the human mind and how it's doing these kinds of calculations and determinations all the time, and how accurate people can be, especially with tasks they've trained for. Precision in that regard doesn't seem problematic at all. I don't need nor necessarily want the mechanics to be front and center. I just think they should be known. And no, I'm not saying that anyone running FKR is cheating or having badwrongfun. My concern is how running an FKR game in a principled manner must be very difficult. In an attempt to move things forward a bit, do you have any examples of what you do or how you remain principled in your GMing when running FKR style? I know the basics of like "lean on genre", but do you have an example of play that you could share? So why does the GM roll in the open? Why not roll behind a screen and then just observe the player roll, and then let them know what happens? For an opposed roll, no I wouldn't demand the GM roll first; why would I do that? There's no impact on my decision making at that point, and the odds are known to me because we're both just rolling 2d6 and seeing who gets higher. Unless there are modifiers in place; then I'd like to know that. [/QUOTE]
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