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<blockquote data-quote="Malmuria" data-source="post: 8431172" data-attributes="member: 7030755">A couple things- this is not my understanding at all of what, for example, OSR/AD&amp;D people mean when they say &quot;skilled play.&quot;&nbsp; I understand &quot;skilled play&quot; not to be about leveraging mechanics, but rather leveraging the fiction of the world.&nbsp; This often this means using in-fiction elements to stack things in your favor--taking along hirlings, making elaborate traps, using subterfuge or out of the box thinking.for example:[URL unfurl=&quot;true&quot;]https://alldeadgenerations.blogspot.com/2018/12/old-games.html[/URL]Of course both examples there require different kinds of &quot;skill.&quot;&nbsp; My point is that I imagine people who are trying to play a pre-OD&amp;D &quot;Arnesonian&quot; game (where the rules were not player facing) would describe skilled play as manipulating the fiction as described by the DM, not thinking through any particular set of rules or mechanics.&nbsp; But maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.- the other thought/question I had was this: what about players who don't know, to one extent or another, what the rules are?&nbsp; Are they playing a game where they are just saying arbitrary things seeing what will work?&nbsp; I'm actually thinking here of 5e: adult players who don't read the rules and don't really care, or, perhaps especially, child players who can't yet read all the rules?&nbsp; As described upthread I play with my nephew; he rolls the dice and I do all the math and tell him what happens.&nbsp; He knows that it's better to roll high, that's about it.&nbsp; Everything else is just him responding to what I describe in the game world.&nbsp; And he probably comes up with more creative solutions to things than any of my adult players!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Malmuria, post: 8431172, member: 7030755"] A couple things - this is not my understanding at all of what, for example, OSR/AD&D people mean when they say "skilled play." I understand "skilled play" not to be about leveraging mechanics, but rather leveraging the fiction of the world. This often this means using in-fiction elements to stack things in your favor--taking along hirlings, making elaborate traps, using subterfuge or out of the box thinking. for example: [URL unfurl="true"]https://alldeadgenerations.blogspot.com/2018/12/old-games.html[/URL] Of course both examples there require different kinds of "skill." My point is that I imagine people who are trying to play a pre-OD&D "Arnesonian" game (where the rules were not player facing) would describe skilled play as manipulating the fiction as described by the DM, not thinking through any particular set of rules or mechanics. But maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying. - the other thought/question I had was this: what about players who don't know, to one extent or another, what the rules are? Are they playing a game where they are just saying arbitrary things seeing what will work? I'm actually thinking here of 5e: adult players who don't read the rules and don't really care, or, perhaps especially, child players who can't yet read all the rules? As described upthread I play with my nephew; he rolls the dice and I do all the math and tell him what happens. He knows that it's better to roll high, that's about it. Everything else is just him responding to what I describe in the game world. And he probably comes up with more creative solutions to things than any of my adult players! [/QUOTE]

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