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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8431205" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I think it would help this discussion to provide examples.</p><p></p><p>Here are two, both taken from AD&D module S2 White Plume Mountain.</p><p></p><p>SPOILERS FOLLOW</p><p></p><p>In WPM, there is a frictionless corridor with pits in it. The pits are spiked with blades that cause anyone landing on them to be infected with near-intantly fatal super-tetanus. The frictionless surface means that PCs will slide into the pits. The module says (p 11):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The trick here is to get a rope strung through this room and fastened securely at both ends. Once this is done, a party can pull themselves across, regardless of the surface. A clever party may even be able to come up with other methods. Ingenuity is required.</p><p></p><p>The most famous example of ingenuity I know of, here, is taking doors from elsewhere of the dungeon and surfing them down the frictionless corridor (they are too long to fall into the pits).</p><p></p><p>That is skilled play. It depends upon the fiction being (1) clearly established, and (2) being amenable to transparent and consensual reasoning. If in doubt, the GM probably needs to say "yes" - eg notice that no checks are required for PCs to traverse the rope, even though we could imagine in "real life" that a tired PC might slip and fall from the rope down onto the frictionless surface.</p><p></p><p>We could also imagine doors that are long enough to slide over a pit nevertheless tumbling down into one, rather than sliding across it, if there is too much weight on its front compared to its back when being used as a "surfboard". But the game is not really meant to be an exercise in calculating rotational forces operating on sliding doors. If anyone thinks to ask the question, it surely should be enough for the players to say "we sit at the back of the surfing doors".</p><p></p><p>Now, a second example. The magic sword Blackrazor is guarded by the ogre mag Qesnef, who - when the PCs encounter him - is polymorphed into a halfling. We are told (p 12) that Qesnef "lost a bet with Keraptis and as a result must guard his treasure for 1001 years". What happens if the players decide to try and persuade Qesnef to abandon his commitment to Keraptis? To begin with, what exactly is the force of the <em>must</em>? Does it mean Qesnef is Geased? Or otherwise magically bound? Can the PCs lift this binding with a Remove Curse spell? Or some other magic-negating effect? And if so, which one? (AD&D has many such effects, and for reasons of character level apart from anything else the players won't have access to all or even any of them.) Or does the <em>must</em> just mean that Qesnef is bound by his promise and prefers not to break it?</p><p></p><p>In this context, what would skilled play - <em>manipulating the fiction as described by the GM</em> - look like? There is no established fiction that the players can leverage. The GM's scope for decision-making in response to any particular action declaration is close to unlimited, given that the GM will <em>have </em>to author additional explanatory backstory in the moment, and the AD&D system puts basically no limit on what that might be.</p><p></p><p>I think that [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER]'s point about the example of the fight on the plane is that it is much more like the Qesnef example than the frictionless corridor example. The player is not "manpulating fiction" that is clearly established and supports transparent consensual reasoning. The player is making things up, and the GM is making things up in reply.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8431205, member: 42582"] I think it would help this discussion to provide examples. Here are two, both taken from AD&D module S2 White Plume Mountain. SPOILERS FOLLOW In WPM, there is a frictionless corridor with pits in it. The pits are spiked with blades that cause anyone landing on them to be infected with near-intantly fatal super-tetanus. The frictionless surface means that PCs will slide into the pits. The module says (p 11): [INDENT]The trick here is to get a rope strung through this room and fastened securely at both ends. Once this is done, a party can pull themselves across, regardless of the surface. A clever party may even be able to come up with other methods. Ingenuity is required.[/INDENT] The most famous example of ingenuity I know of, here, is taking doors from elsewhere of the dungeon and surfing them down the frictionless corridor (they are too long to fall into the pits). That is skilled play. It depends upon the fiction being (1) clearly established, and (2) being amenable to transparent and consensual reasoning. If in doubt, the GM probably needs to say "yes" - eg notice that no checks are required for PCs to traverse the rope, even though we could imagine in "real life" that a tired PC might slip and fall from the rope down onto the frictionless surface. We could also imagine doors that are long enough to slide over a pit nevertheless tumbling down into one, rather than sliding across it, if there is too much weight on its front compared to its back when being used as a "surfboard". But the game is not really meant to be an exercise in calculating rotational forces operating on sliding doors. If anyone thinks to ask the question, it surely should be enough for the players to say "we sit at the back of the surfing doors". Now, a second example. The magic sword Blackrazor is guarded by the ogre mag Qesnef, who - when the PCs encounter him - is polymorphed into a halfling. We are told (p 12) that Qesnef "lost a bet with Keraptis and as a result must guard his treasure for 1001 years". What happens if the players decide to try and persuade Qesnef to abandon his commitment to Keraptis? To begin with, what exactly is the force of the [I]must[/I]? Does it mean Qesnef is Geased? Or otherwise magically bound? Can the PCs lift this binding with a Remove Curse spell? Or some other magic-negating effect? And if so, which one? (AD&D has many such effects, and for reasons of character level apart from anything else the players won't have access to all or even any of them.) Or does the [I]must[/I] just mean that Qesnef is bound by his promise and prefers not to break it? In this context, what would skilled play - [I]manipulating the fiction as described by the GM[/I] - look like? There is no established fiction that the players can leverage. The GM's scope for decision-making in response to any particular action declaration is close to unlimited, given that the GM will [I]have [/I]to author additional explanatory backstory in the moment, and the AD&D system puts basically no limit on what that might be. I think that [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER]'s point about the example of the fight on the plane is that it is much more like the Qesnef example than the frictionless corridor example. The player is not "manpulating fiction" that is clearly established and supports transparent consensual reasoning. The player is making things up, and the GM is making things up in reply. [/QUOTE]
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