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Table practices for handling skills in 5e?
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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 9261030" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>[ATTACH=full]345628[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>I thought this graphic might help orient ourselves and have clearer discussion. So far, there's focus on the <span style="color: rgb(209, 72, 65)">X-axis </span>(open/strict skill interpretation) and <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">Y-axis </span>(hiding/reveal skill rolls). I'm hoping to share more conversation about the <span style="color: rgb(97, 189, 109)">Z-axis</span> (universal/differentiated skill procedures), especially with folks engaging with that Z-axis.</p><p></p><p>EDIT: I'd posit that 5e as it tends to be played (what the books encourage either tacitly or explicitly) is at (0, 0, -70), or in the center of the X-axis, center of the Y-axis, but pretty far away from the Z-axis' center towards "universal rules for all skills." My position is that <em>this</em> creates a problematic mismatch between how people approach different types of skills/situations & what the rules say/imply.</p><p></p><p>I'll give examples...</p><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(97, 189, 109)"><strong>Z-Axis: Each Skill Works Differently</strong></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e – Survival to forage has explicit numbers for pounds of food attached to it (DMG 111), whereas using Athletics to jump is listed as an example but it's vague how it interacts with hard-coded "Strength X? here's jump distance calculation", whereas Intimidation has nothing numerical/hard-coded about it.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e – Rolling Stealth more like a saving throw right at the last minute when there's immediate threat of discovery (as opposed to other skills where the roll typically happens very shortly after player declaring "I do such-and-such").</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gumshoe RPG – Investigative skills as resource to automatically find clue vs. Active skills which get a check.</li> </ul><p><span style="color: rgb(97, 189, 109)"><strong>Z-Axis: Universal Rules for All Skills</strong></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e – Charisma-based skills used to elicit a response in a NPC all fall back on the tried-and-true d20/DC system with a shared chart in the DMG comparing NPC's starting attitude to the PCs' "ask" to determine the check DC.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">PbtA/Dungeon World – Roll 2d6+Stat against universal target numbers, with some moves defining what the success and failure mean, for pretty much anything pertaining to "skill checks."</li> </ul><p><span style="color: rgb(209, 72, 65)"><strong>X-Axis: Open Interpretation of Skill Rolls</strong></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e – GM using the DMG options about mixing/matching Ability Scores and Skill Proficiencies, and/or generally being flexible about which Skill a player uses when the situation seems flexible.</li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(209, 72, 65)"><strong>X-Axis: Strict Interpretation of Skill Rolls</strong></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e – GM strictly calling for certain skills (and <em>not </em>others), regulating who can make what check, making sure skills don't overreach beyond whatever the rules say they can do (and when interpretation is necessary remaining conservative), enforcing action economy for skill usage without exception, etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4e – When a skill challenge instructed the GM to require certain skill checks to overcome an abstracted challenge.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Palladium – Or any system with % rolls, really leans hard into strict interpretation with binary (pass/fail) outcomes.</li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>Y-Axis: Transparent Skill Rolls and Stakes</strong></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e – GM saying "Make a Stealth check DC 16 to avoid being detected by the goblins."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">D&D (any edition) – GM asking "what are you trying to accomplish here?" and saying "That's not really covered by the rules, but how about we try this?"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Leverage / Cortex Plus – Raising the stakes is a core part of the rules that is player-facing involving opposed rolls/rerolls in an attempt to beat the opposition.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">White Hack – The "auction/bidding system" for non-combat conflict resolution has some touches of players having a say in the stakes of a scene.</li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>Y-Axis: Hiding Certain Skill Rolls from Players</strong></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">D&D (any edition, usually AD&D/BD&D) – GM rolling behind the screen for certain PC rolls "the players shouldn't know the result of" such as secret doors checks, Stealth checks, etc.</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 9261030, member: 20323"] [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screen Shot 2024-02-09 at 7.58.41 AM.png"]345628[/ATTACH] I thought this graphic might help orient ourselves and have clearer discussion. So far, there's focus on the [COLOR=rgb(209, 72, 65)]X-axis [/COLOR](open/strict skill interpretation) and [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]Y-axis [/COLOR](hiding/reveal skill rolls). I'm hoping to share more conversation about the [COLOR=rgb(97, 189, 109)]Z-axis[/COLOR] (universal/differentiated skill procedures), especially with folks engaging with that Z-axis. EDIT: I'd posit that 5e as it tends to be played (what the books encourage either tacitly or explicitly) is at (0, 0, -70), or in the center of the X-axis, center of the Y-axis, but pretty far away from the Z-axis' center towards "universal rules for all skills." My position is that [I]this[/I] creates a problematic mismatch between how people approach different types of skills/situations & what the rules say/imply. I'll give examples... [COLOR=rgb(97, 189, 109)][B]Z-Axis: Each Skill Works Differently[/B][/COLOR] [LIST] [*]5e – Survival to forage has explicit numbers for pounds of food attached to it (DMG 111), whereas using Athletics to jump is listed as an example but it's vague how it interacts with hard-coded "Strength X? here's jump distance calculation", whereas Intimidation has nothing numerical/hard-coded about it. [*]5e – Rolling Stealth more like a saving throw right at the last minute when there's immediate threat of discovery (as opposed to other skills where the roll typically happens very shortly after player declaring "I do such-and-such"). [*]Gumshoe RPG – Investigative skills as resource to automatically find clue vs. Active skills which get a check. [/LIST] [COLOR=rgb(97, 189, 109)][B]Z-Axis: Universal Rules for All Skills[/B][/COLOR] [LIST] [*]5e – Charisma-based skills used to elicit a response in a NPC all fall back on the tried-and-true d20/DC system with a shared chart in the DMG comparing NPC's starting attitude to the PCs' "ask" to determine the check DC. [*]PbtA/Dungeon World – Roll 2d6+Stat against universal target numbers, with some moves defining what the success and failure mean, for pretty much anything pertaining to "skill checks." [/LIST] [COLOR=rgb(209, 72, 65)][B]X-Axis: Open Interpretation of Skill Rolls[/B][/COLOR] [LIST] [*]5e – GM using the DMG options about mixing/matching Ability Scores and Skill Proficiencies, and/or generally being flexible about which Skill a player uses when the situation seems flexible. [/LIST] [COLOR=rgb(209, 72, 65)][B]X-Axis: Strict Interpretation of Skill Rolls[/B][/COLOR] [LIST] [*]5e – GM strictly calling for certain skills (and [I]not [/I]others), regulating who can make what check, making sure skills don't overreach beyond whatever the rules say they can do (and when interpretation is necessary remaining conservative), enforcing action economy for skill usage without exception, etc. [*]4e – When a skill challenge instructed the GM to require certain skill checks to overcome an abstracted challenge. [*]Palladium – Or any system with % rolls, really leans hard into strict interpretation with binary (pass/fail) outcomes. [/LIST] [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]Y-Axis: Transparent Skill Rolls and Stakes[/B][/COLOR] [LIST] [*]5e – GM saying "Make a Stealth check DC 16 to avoid being detected by the goblins." [*]D&D (any edition) – GM asking "what are you trying to accomplish here?" and saying "That's not really covered by the rules, but how about we try this?" [*]Leverage / Cortex Plus – Raising the stakes is a core part of the rules that is player-facing involving opposed rolls/rerolls in an attempt to beat the opposition. [*]White Hack – The "auction/bidding system" for non-combat conflict resolution has some touches of players having a say in the stakes of a scene. [/LIST] [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]Y-Axis: Hiding Certain Skill Rolls from Players[/B][/COLOR] [LIST] [*]D&D (any edition, usually AD&D/BD&D) – GM rolling behind the screen for certain PC rolls "the players shouldn't know the result of" such as secret doors checks, Stealth checks, etc. [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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