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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Saeviomagy" data-source="post: 6887934" data-attributes="member: 5890">But most importantly you also frame those goals differently. Your players state a change to the world that they wish to create that is inclusive of the actions of their target. My player state a change to the world that they wish to create, and maybe the target goes along with that.The DM (or the dice) determine what a player's character thinks or does all the time. That said, I treat social skills against PCs the same as against NPCs: they represent a change to the world that does not include the actions of the target. If you lie to an NPC, he can still choose how to act even if he believes you think your lie is true. The same goes for a PC.</blockquote>