Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Saeviomagy" data-source="post: 6888776" data-attributes="member: 5890">It's &quot;I convince the guard to leave by telling him his house is on fire&quot; vs &quot;I tell the guard that his house is on fire, and I hope that causes him to leave&quot;.In the first version, the outcome of a successful roll is that the guard leaves. How strongly the guard believes in the lie, how much he values his house vs his job, the possibility of other house-saving actions and whether he can currently see his house are all rolled into the DC and whether or not the DM adjudicates the outcome is possible.In the second version, the outcome of a successful roll is that the guard finds the lie believable. Whether he leaves his post then comes down to how much he values his house vs his job, what other house saving options are available and whether he can see his house from here.In both cases, the guard probably won't leave his post if he can see that his house is on fire: in one case, it's because the DM says &quot;Don't even roll, you fail because his house is visible from here&quot;. In the other the player rolls, and the guard tells them that they're lying/mistaken depending on the roll, because he can see his house from here.I think the distinction between you and I is more a semantic one: I see the line of PC self determination being at the point where they choose to undertake an action, and everything from there on is a bit fuzzy. A PC chooses to try to recall lore, the DM and dice dictate whether she actually does so. A PC chooses to try to convince the guard to let him pass, and the DM and dice dictate whether the guard is convinced. A PC chooses to lie to another PC, and the dice and the other PC determine whether that's effective.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Saeviomagy, post: 6888776, member: 5890"] It's "I convince the guard to leave by telling him his house is on fire" vs "I tell the guard that his house is on fire, and I hope that causes him to leave". In the first version, the outcome of a successful roll is that the guard leaves. How strongly the guard believes in the lie, how much he values his house vs his job, the possibility of other house-saving actions and whether he can currently see his house are all rolled into the DC and whether or not the DM adjudicates the outcome is possible. In the second version, the outcome of a successful roll is that the guard finds the lie believable. Whether he leaves his post then comes down to how much he values his house vs his job, what other house saving options are available and whether he can see his house from here. In both cases, the guard probably won't leave his post if he can see that his house is on fire: in one case, it's because the DM says "Don't even roll, you fail because his house is visible from here". In the other the player rolls, and the guard tells them that they're lying/mistaken depending on the roll, because he can see his house from here. I think the distinction between you and I is more a semantic one: I see the line of PC self determination being at the point where they choose to undertake an action, and everything from there on is a bit fuzzy. A PC chooses to try to recall lore, the DM and dice dictate whether she actually does so. A PC chooses to try to convince the guard to let him pass, and the DM and dice dictate whether the guard is convinced. A PC chooses to lie to another PC, and the dice and the other PC determine whether that's effective. [/QUOTE]

Verification