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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arrowhawk" data-source="post: 5705350" data-attributes="member: 6679551">Jimlock, I think you're conflating two completely separate things.   Aid Another does not require that you roll a 20 to assist someone.  Your example of holding someone or something, is a good example.  You're just providing assistance and as long as you roll a 10 or better, you're assistance is beneficial.  And to be honest, it's not entirely clear to me why both people couldn't Take 10 with AA because T10 is not based on attempts, but ability to focus and performing the task at a level that you could consistently repeat it.Take 20...does assume you are rolling every try, you just don't have to for the benefit of the human players.  That's exactly why you characters incur any penalties for each attempt.   Patryn's assertion that you get the 20 on the last attempt is the disconnect.  It's a total and complete failure to understand the probability basis of what WotC is doing witih the Take 20 rule.  You don't get nineteen failures in a row.  You just have to pay a "tax" of having attempted it twentiy times because the probability of rolling a 20 is 1/20.   If there was a skill check that required a d12, then the rule would be Take 12.  If it was a d6, it would be Take 6.   "20" isn't some magic number WotC pulled out of its ass, whereby a task is automatically completed.If you're having trouble understanding this, you really need to think about the underlying probability and the basis under which T20 is allowed.  Again, WotC is saying rather than make you roll...let's agree that since you have a 1/x chance of getting the best number, we'll just charge you x attempts and call it even.  To Take 20 with two people both needing 20 to complete the task at the same time.  Your odds go to 1/400.  That mean it becomes Take 400.   If the task did not require simultaneous 20's, then you could use Take 20.  If a door could only be broken with a DC of 40...both players would have to kick the door with a 20 at the same exact roll.  With Take 20, you don't know which roll that occurs on.  Reading the T20 rule such that you get that 20 on the last roll is what is silly.  I'm not sure why you keep trying to force the T20 rule on top of AA. As I said above, you don't need a 20 to provide +2 assistance bonus.</blockquote>

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