Take 20!?

[rawgt3]

Hello again. this time I'm DMing a high level campaign and some of the players have stopped using skill points in important class skills because, between the ability modifier, ranks, and synergies they can do any action with the skill without even rolling. For example , the toughest
tumble action requires a roll of 25 according to PHB 3.5. Well one char. has this:
Tumble +5 Dex, 18 ranks, +2 synergy bonus = 25 automatically!! So my question is, Should I make some actions need higher rolls than specified, or is this just some way to reward the char.
for focusing on the skill for so long?

 

[Traken]

Welcome to high-level D&D. Where the characters rules the world and rules start to break down.

That aside, increasing the DCs will only delay the inevitable and probably anger someone. If you want to make tumble a little less powerful, make it an opposed roll somehow. Maybe tumble check vs a Reflex save. As for other skills, it's up to you, but realize that characters at high-level are supposed to be powerful. Also, nerfing skills only makes wizards that much more powerful.

 

[DreamChaser]

The key to balancing high level play is to make sure that no encounter or story every hinges on a single ability, set of abilities, or common combination. Utilize the world to make the situation more complex / challenging.

For example with the Tumble scenario. The highest DC is 25, but it is important to note that each enemy past the first add +2 to the DC and each check is made separately. Also, remember the following:

Surface Is . . .
Lightly obstructed (scree, light rubble, shallow bog, undergrowth) +2
Severely obstructed (natural cavern floor, dense rubble, dense undergrowth) +5
Lightly slippery (wet floor) +2
Severely slippery (ice sheet) +5
Sloped or angled +2

Tumbling is impossible in a deep bog.

So, a fight in boggy and overgrown areas can add some interest. make the baddies immune to the element the wizard uses most of the time (heck the shield spell blocks magic missile). hidden archers, swarms, invisible enemies, the teams of upstarts who plan a devious ambush against the characters to prove that they are better than the heroes (and who have the advantage of having studied the heroes while the heroes know nothing of them).

Some might call these contrivances....perhaps but so is any story. More importantly, you are doing what is necessary to keep the game a challenge on a mechanical level (the RP part can still be anyway).

DC

 

[the Jester]

One way to reward continued investment in Tumble is to use the ol' "Counter-Tumble" optional rule from Sword & Fist. Basically, if you're tumbling past someone that has ranks in Tumble themselves, you have to beat them in an opposed Tumble check to successfully avoid the AoO that you'd normally incur (instead of just hitting DC 15-25).

 

[Vahktang]

If you think the skill checks at high level are bad, wait until you see the effects of Hero's Feast every day.
No more Poison
No more Disease
No more Fear

Which sounds pretty bad until you realize at that level a hero should be pretty much immune to that stuff.
More heroic that way.
Besides, dispel magic can occaisionally work.

 

[jdrakeh]

For example , the toughest tumble action requires a roll of 25 according to PHB 3.5.

The hardest example of a tumble action. The PHB examples are just that -- examples. They are not meant to serve as finite lists of DCs, something that many players and DMs tend to forget.

 

[DreamChaser]

and as I indicated above, this isn't even true...tumbling through a creature's space on a severely slippery, severely obstructed slope would be DC 37...and that is assuming that the character doesn't have to tumble past additional creatures.

A house rule that could help would be the 30/-10 critical rules I use (though I don't think I came up with it...don't remember now).

A 20 is treated as a 30 and a 1 as a -10. This way at low levels there is the off chance for amazing success (dumb luck) and at high levels, there is the chance for amazing failures though at extremely high levels there is no chance of failing at routine or slightly challenging tasks (with +25, a DC 15 is still hit with a -10 "roll")

DC

 

[the Jester]

A house rule that could help would be the 30/-10 critical rules I use (though I don't think I came up with it...don't remember now).

A 20 is treated as a 30 and a 1 as a -10. This way at low levels there is the off chance for amazing success (dumb luck) and at high levels, there is the chance for amazing failures though at extremely high levels there is no chance of failing at routine or slightly challenging tasks (with +25, a DC 15 is still hit with a -10 "roll")

I believe it's an alternate rule in the DMG.

It's a good variant; we used it in my group for a while before changing to exploding dice, and now I kind of think 30/-10 is better than exploding dice, because exploding dice slows the game too much.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Really, the title should be Take 0

and as I indicated above, this isn't even true...tumbling through a creature's space on a severely slippery, severely obstructed slope would be DC 37...and that is assuming that the character doesn't have to tumble past additional creatures.

Heh. At 23rd level in our old Birthright game, my rogue had a +58 Tumble check (Dex 28, 26 ranks, 2 synergy, 20 class modifier, 1 luck). Even using that counter-roll rule, nothing we fought could get close to him.

And that was fine, it made me happy to be a ninja type and roll big huge numbers. The DM could give me stuff to show off on by setting arbitrarily high DCs ("Balance DC 65? Okay, I take 10."), and it's not like the priest-paladin or the social rogue were able to do those, but they could do things I couldn't.

In short, remember, it's high level, they're supposed to be powerful. You can increase the DCs, though it gets a bit silly (seriously, what can justify a Balance DC of 65? Is it monomolecular or something?).

Brad

 

[domino]

According to the epic rules, yes. Balancing on a hair thin wire is a DC of 60, and say, if it's greased, there's another 5 to the DC.