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Message: <blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 8997668" data-attributes="member: 83242">You are correct. I think the comment applies to both books really. Though regarding dragons it was a disappointment that the monster vault didn't update the ancient dragons <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" />Sorry it was called <a href="http://dmg42.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">DMG 42</a> and it was a blog - my mistake! Here is the damage analysis:<a href="http://dmg42.blogspot.com/2012/02/boot-on-face-of-level-1-damage-forever.html" target="_blank">Level 1 Damage forever</a>I understand the timeline.  My disagree that MM3 math and beyond is nailed down. It still didn't work at epic levels (and before really). It was better, but not nailed down.My point was two-fold:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Monster roles were expressed in the MM. They might have been improved by the MV (IDK), but they are there in the MM. If you say the abilities leaned into the roles more in 4e, I don't doubt you,. My real argument was...</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The DMG 2 / MM3 monster math really flattened the math difference between the various rules. In the monster creation guidelines in the MM1 there was a lot of variance in AC, HP, attack bonus, and damage.  Most of this was removed in the revised math. Not completely, but the delta was flattened. That is what I meant by lessening the impact of roles. </li> </ol>Ultimately it is a bit a ying and yang, less numbers support for roles, but more ability support.Yes, I even called them out. IIRC, they were called "Instinctive Actions" in 4e. They are simplier than legendary actions, but not as flexibly. I have designed a few 5e monsters with them, but ultimately I prefer legendary actions.It was a good book. I still have my copy!Yes, it was  great improvement over the MM designs.I agree in general. Though the 5e design allows for a superior solution, like what level up has down with the Elite Recovery Legendary Action. I am personally not a fan of legendary resistance for most monsters and use Elite Recovery or similar options in my monster designs.I agree!Interesting. That is not my experience. I think most 4e fans I know love that book. However, I don't discuss it much now so I could be out of touch.I generally agree. Back when I ran MM dragons and not my own I allowed ancient dragons to spend a legendary action to use a lair action even if they were not in their lair.  Personally I would like the dragons to have abilities like these in their statblock and then have different lair actions too.  However, a quick fix was to just let the dragon spend a legendary action on them.</blockquote>

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