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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8998827" data-attributes="member: 93670">not at all. Most of them fall into a few categories:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1: Newbies who honestly don't know how to participate in a session zero who have been given abhorrent expectations of stardom & Main Character positioning by wotc & 5e's player facing rulebooks, they are actively put on the wrong track by the core rules. I obviously lack anything to point them at a constructive path towards collaboration because the PHB is going to sabotage my efforts there & the TCoE session zero section seems written towards a hostile GM who doesn't even know what a session zero is & it almost entirely skips over players.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">2: Newbies who feel overloaded & can't be directed to some useful player facing text while I'm helping a different player. Players who aim to win a game with no win state & want to use anything they can</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">3: experienced players who learned how to constructively collaborate with the GM & don't really care to do it now or are entirely capable of improvising session zero type stuff during play.  Player facing text that points groups 1&2 in this direction while the GM is busy working with one player at a time on something session zero-ish in topic</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4: Players who may or may not care if there is a session zero for whatever reason & just want to start playing but lack any guidance in text or mechanical pressure to collaborate with the other players in character building because PHB11-15 "Chapter 1: Step by step character creation" actively steers players away from collaborating on anything before they have a fully completed character.</li> </ul>This started with you quoting a post that begins with the following:It's not like I was keeping the source of the session zero rules a secret or trying to obscure their source.  Not only did I make it clear, I also pointed out that Perkins brought them up as an example of something great to move into the DMG.  The session zero rules in TCoE are not useful for inclusion in the DMG because they fasil to reach a "useful goal" by targeting a thought experiment caricature of a bad super-newbie GM who is almost certain to lack the skills needed to teach their players how to participate constructively & run with that constructive participation on their own.   Almost everything the TCoE session zero section talks about is stuff that a GM should often be doing throughout the campaign & should have sections dedicated to those things individually (if at all) rather than a quick summary.  The biggest nail in the skullfor that TCoE section though is PHB pages 11-15 where players are actively guided away from collaborating or considering anyone else at the table until they have a fully created character.  Instead of the hold my beer intro players should have one that covers their role in session zero as part of chargen because much of it is important no matter when they are making a character or if they are meeting face to face for a session dubbed session zero instead of a quick colab over a group chat.Since you don;t have your book, here is the start of that session zero section that Perkins taled up up as an example of something great to add into the DMG in the video[spoiler][ATTACH=full]282603[/ATTACH][/spoiler]Even if that was player facing elsewhere in the book the actual text on 139-141 is not actually written towards players & talks almost exclusively about what a GM should be doing during session zero with much of it at odds with the player facing PHB11-15 section on character creation & the later PHB section on backgrounds that likewise encourages players to take an isolated you be you outlook.</blockquote>

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