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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8999384" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I'm sorry, other than trying to get players excited by saying "this is your story" how the heck do the rules of 5e put players on the wrong track? You keep making this claim like anyone who reads the rulebook will suddenly think they are THE KING OF ALL GAMES! but any newbie playing DnD first of all, likely knows it is a team game, and second of all, likely doesn't have the confidence for this expectations of stardom. I just don't see the evidence for this horrific, poisoned view of new players.How are players who are overwhelmed the same as players who want to win the game? And why CAN'T you direct them to useful text for their questions?What kinds of mechanical pressure are you wanting to put on players to force them to collaborate in character creation? This sounds like insanity to me. You know that in older editions (mostly second) "who plays the healer" is a joke because no one WANTS to play the healer? It sounds like you want to bring that back and force people to scramble for the roles they actually want to play, leaving someone with the short stick. And this ALREADY happens in the 5e, so I don't see the value in making it worse.I never said you were keeping it secret. I'm working on jet-lag and not having a good night's sleep for the past three days on top of stress. I missed it, and thought you were complaining about it being currently in the DMG because it is currently useless there. False, but lets say you are right and these rules are for new DMs who don't quite understand how to run a session zero. Why is that not a useful goal? Why is teaching people about such a key concept a bad thing? Do you know that every core book of every TTRPG I've ever read has included a section on what TTRPGs are. Completely useless? Not if this is the first of those books you've ever read it isn't. And, again, the rules don't need to teach the skills of how to work in a group with people. They learned it is kindergarten. If they are old enough to read, they are old enough to know how to work with others. And if they can't, a rulebook isn't exactly the best place to teach that."The rules should be more thorough" is a VERY different argument than "these rules are actively bad and failing to accomplish any meaningful goal."Okay, so I went and read over those pages (digital copy for the win) Those pages are the pages that tell people how to create a character. And your problem with that, is that they start with "figure out what you may want to play" instead of "Go to your group and DM and collaboratively figure out what you will play"? Because, man, as a DM? As a DM it is WAY easier for me to help someone who comes to me and says "I want to play a warrior with a massive hammer!" that it is for me to help someone who says "What should I play?" Because I don't have a clue what they SHOULD play. Because what they SHOULD play is whatever character interests them. I had a guy once play a bard, quit the game because he didn't feel effective in combat because he wasn't dealing direct damage (I wasn't the DM). If someone comes to me as a completely blank canvass, then I have to start asking them questions and chipping away at what they may or may not like. And there are TONS of options in DnD. It is kind of a staple of the game. And no one comes into the process not realizing this is a team game, especially as the DM brings up the other players in session zero. But the rules don't talk about making an entire team, because that would just lead to Alpha Player Syndrome if handled poorly. And if you think players are divas now (which they aren't) just imagine a world where they got the impression they got to dictate the other people's characters as well.Okay? Again, I had no problem with it being in the DMG when I misinterpreted what you were saying. You seem to think the PHB is telling players some sort of insidious message that then they will point to and declare from on high that the DM has no power here to... talk to them about how their character fits into the group dynamic? Like, that doesn't even make sense. Who objects to discussing how their character will work with others in the group, when playing a group game? The PHB certainly doesn't encourage that sort of behavior, they just talk to the player about the process of making a character. Something that can be done without a DM, because many people make extra characters for fun.</blockquote>

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