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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Herremann the Wise" data-source="post: 5710524" data-attributes="member: 11300">Many would not appreciate as you later explain the troll treading upon the PC (particularly if the troll is not near the PC). However, you could come up with several narratives that could alternatively explain the mechanical third fail (you go to get up rupturing your vitals and instantly die or if "assisted" by a fellow PC, you could describe them moving you or "healing" you such that what was left of your life unfortunately evaporates). But this is not the problem (you could equally describe a similar  narrative under 3.x rules as the PC hits -10 or negative con score in Pathfinder).The negative hp situation in 4e as you have described it is somewhat analogous to having the stunned condition in 3.x. It is something that if the PC recovers from, that they'll be back in the action acting at capacity. However, what situation in 4e rules is analogous to hitting the negatives in 3.x? How do you sustain a "serious" wound in 4e and how is it mechanically supported? RAW there isn't one.As I described above, you don't even need the action of the troll to do this (although if the troll is adjacent to the PC then obviously you can legitimately narrate it that way). In 4e there is no problem in describing a stunning blow that the PC recovers from, nor is their narrative difficulty in turning that into a fatality. Where there is difficulty is in describing a wound that a PC could not reasonably insta-recover from but that does not kill them. Do you agree?Some players really don't dig this style of play though. If an action is significant enough to kill a PC, it is most likely one that should be highlighted by a specific action (even if only a minor one). Others don't mind the DM playing around with the narrative in this way. To each their own.The thing is, it is really easy to modify the 4e system to incorporate serious wounds. You could have two styles of serious wound:- [Serious]The PC can spend healing surges as per usual, but they don't get any back until they have either made a number of daily constitution checks or an ally has made a number of daily heal checks. {The number here perhaps being 3 and the DC being difficult} This leads to a situation where the PC could be up and about but in a bad way (minimal surges left).- [Mortal (Really Serious)]The PC cannot use their healing surges. They must make a number of very difficult daily constitution checks (or allies daily heal checks) with any fail resulting in the loss of a healing surge and a "failed" save. {Again the number here is perhaps 3 daily checks} Upon success, their mortal wound is instead miraculously recovered from and becomes a serious wound. This leads to a situation where the PC does not regain normal consciousness for a number of days and could easily die in this time, and when they are finally up and about, they are not at full capacity for a further period of time.With such a change, the narrative space for 4e opens up, the spectrum of potential damage narratives is unbroken and you have an overall narrative space broader than that of 3.x RAW.The central issue here perhaps is that the a large section of players don't want to have to deal with serious wounding that takes a PC potentially out of the action for a period of time greater than a day.Best RegardsHerremann the Wise</blockquote>

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