Taking 20 on Search vs a symbol

[hong]

Preamble: I don't have a problem with taking 20 on Search in general. So let's not get distracted by that one.

This question came up in the most recent session. The rogue got caught by a symbol of insanity trap, and afterwards started being more cautious. I ruled that she was taking 20 on her Search check in case there were any more symbols around.

Some of the players had an issue with this, since they couldn't grok how you were supposed to take 20 on a Search when a symbol was around. This was because you (generally) only need to be within 60' of a symbol and look at it, to set it off. Hence the usual try-repeatedly-until-success idea didn't seem to apply.

How should Search checks and symbols be handled? Would taking 20 still make sense?

 

[Thanee]

The rules answer is very simple. You obviously can use Search to find it (the spell description specifically says so), so you can Take 20. Nothing happens, if the Search does fail. Only if the Rogue moves on under the impression to be secure triggers the Symbol.

Searching magical traps is a rather weird topic anyways, that's hard to put into any realistic context.

Of course, you could rule that it is impossible to use Search on a triggered-by-looking-at-it type of Symbol, but only on the other various types.

With closed eyes and a Detect Magic spell it should be fairly simple to identify possible Symbols (Enchantment aura of a high enough strength - given, that they expect them, which they obviously do) and with enough care, searching for them without actually looking at the position could also work.

Bye
Thanee

 

[azmodean]

I think the question boils down to "can you make a search check at a distance greater than 60'?" For "trigger on sight" symbols anyway.

SEARCH (INT)
Check: You generally must be within 10 feet of the object or surface to be searched.

In this case I'd rule that a bad roll vs a "trigger on sight" symbol could set off the symbol, therefore the character could not take 20 on the check.

The problem with this is in most situations you can take 20, and telling the player they can't take 20 in a particular case lets them know that there is something dangerous in the area.

Here's what I would do, let the character take 20 by default (wow, moving at 5'/2 minutes or 2.5' a minute, that's one patient party), but if they come across a sight-activated symbol, you make a normal search check for them, and if it fails by more than a certain amount (about 5 seems resonable), then the symbol triggers. Here's the most imporant part, tell the player you will be doing this before the next game session starts. In short, "some symbols have a chance to be triggered by merely looking at them, so taking 20 on those traps is not an option. In these cases I'll secretly roll your normal search check for you."

Hope that helps.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Well, judging from the spell's description in PHB 3.0, I'd say it depends on what exactly tiggers the Symbol. A touch-trigger does not go off when the rune is looked at, or a read-trigger either. Look-triggered is more difficult.

I'd actually have the rogue in question describe to me roughly how he searches...by touch with closed eyes, by sight alone etc. If he specifically searches for a Symbol, grant him some skill check (maybe he even has a rank in Spellcraft, or a friendly wizard near) like Disable Device to let him know what might set off that spell.

It's all depending on the situation, in my opinion. Be flexible, and try to use common sense, as far as that is possible with a spell.

 

[Marimmar]

I'd let the Rogue use his Search skill as normal, after all, he's got trapfinding as a class feature. Forcing the player to describe exactly what he does to find a trap would be like demanding from a wizard player to explain how he casts a spell. Let's just say he knows what to do like maybe using a little mirror to prevent looking directly at the symbol.

~Marimmar

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Yeah, but the problem with Symbol is that a successful Search check might well trigger the rune, kinda like "Hey, I found some strange inscribed sigil on that door, look here...BOOOOOOM!"

If the rogue knows what he is searching for, I'm with you. The Search DC is 33 already, hard enough, and no bad consequences of not really finding it until it's triggered, so take 20.

If he DOESN'T know what he's looking for, we're having the weird situation that a successful Search check might trigger the trap already. Hmmmmm...

 

[FireLance]

My general rule of thumb is, a rogue that makes a successful Search check on the square he is about to step into will be alerted to any negative consequences of stepping into the square. This is irrespective of whether the trap is magical or mechanical. It's as if rogues have some strange extraordinary ability to find traps that nobody else can, no matter how high their Search skill is.

If a rogue has found a magical trap, I'd allow him to use the Disable Device skill to remove it, even if he's 70 feet away from a symbol that will be activated if anyone within 60 feet reads it. It's as if rogues have some strange extraordinary ability to disable magical traps that nobody else can, no matter how high their Disable Device skill is.

 

[azmodean]

Overachiving skill checks

Concerning the idea that a successful search check would trigger a sight-triggered symbol:
I would interpret a successful (beating the check DC) search as either "noticing" the symbol or some effect of the symbol before looking at the symbol in a way that would trigger it, or "sensing" the symbol without even looking at it.
In general I would never rule a skill check as being "too good", some examples:

Attempting to intimidate a prisoner: Some would say an excessively successfull check would frighten the prisoner into madness or make them try to kill themselves, I would interpret it as the character using the exact amount of intimidation to get the prisoner to do what they want. (intimidation is often more about restraint than just scaring the target, this is why you don't use str to modify it, but that's another thread )

Jumping onto a platform: Say you are trying to jump onto a 5'x5' platform over a gap. If you roll 20 higher than what you need, you don't go too far and miss the platform, you can limit the distance to exactly what you need.

So in short, I never penalize players for being "too good" at one of their skills.

And regarding FireLance's interpretation, can't put my finger on it, but I think it's a bit over-generaous to the rogue to let them take 20 on this particular check. Sorry for the lack of clarity.