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Message: <blockquote data-quote="radmod" data-source="post: 5306141" data-attributes="member: 93008">I'm sorry, ir, but there are several problems with your post.From your earlier postPresume that a 20 does eventually succeed (since technically the above rule is wrong if even a 20 would not succeed, e.g. a +5 Spot vs. a DC 30 hide check).Yes, you will auto-fail, but you would also auto-succeed. For a spot check, this means you will fail to notice until you eventually see. So if someone is hiding from you, and a roll of 20 will allow you to see them, then if you look at that location for a full two minutes you will eventually see them even though most of the time you just don't see them. Now if they are aiming at you with a ranged weapon then it's up to your DM to decide if you see them before they surprise you. (I usually give a percentage chance depending on how long it takes them to fire, e.g. if they don't fire at you for five rounds then you get a 25% chance to not be surprised.)I've never quite liked this part because, technically, it means if all you do is try to spot something then you can take 20 in a minute by making the equivalent of double spot checks a round (e.g. a double move).No, for two reasons. 1) The RC says:"If you're successfully hidden ... that creature is treated as flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible."This is all based on the 'if' statement. If you fail to see something then the hidden creature gets to treat you as if it were invisible. Likewise, you are not 'invisible' but 'treated' as invisible, which is discretionary. I'm 101% sure what they intended is simply for the purposes of things like combat or sneak attack. Not for the purposes of making another spot (the +20).2) While taking 20 is treated as if it were rolling 20 times in 20 rounds, it is still a single check: "Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20." While Take 20 does say if the check "carries no penalties for failure", quite frankly, I can't see any competent DM playing it any other way. The idea that just because you didn't see something the first time means that it becomes invisible to later checks is ludicrous. (Unless we're talking about car keys!)I think you missed the 'joke' there. The idea was:DM:"Something is moving toward you through the air." PC: "Okay, I want a Spot check. Um, I'll take 20."DM: "Ooookkaayy. You're taking 20. Hm, after a few seconds, you realize it's a boulder coming straight toward you. You also, curiously, notice that there's a streak of gold in it. As you ponder if that really is a gold vein, the boulder lands on you. You're dead. Next character."</blockquote>

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