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Message: <blockquote data-quote="irdeggman" data-source="post: 5306515" data-attributes="member: 16285">Radmod,I will disagree with many of your presumptions:Autofail is autofail (which means as atated in the rules you would incur any penalties associated with failure).The rules do not say you auto-succeed only that you "get it right" (i.e., the best you can do - which might still not be enough). Rolling a nat 20 on a skill check does not mean autosucceed (only on saving throws and attack rolls - many people miss this one), same with a nat 1 (it doesn't mean you autofail except on saving throws and attack rollls)If you fail to see someone who is attempting to hide from you - they are invisible to you (which means exactly what it says - it even references the section in the Rules Compendium on what invisible means).The penalty (to the spotter) for this is that the creature attempting to hide gains a +20 on his hide checks - hence your take 20 now has a higher DC to meet than it did before - different circumstance. The person attempting to hid never makes multople hide checks.  If mutiple people are attempting to spot him he gets different bonuses/penalties based on each "spotter" (any cover, distance, etc.)So if he is invisible to you he gets a +20 on his Hide check.  Per the Rules Compendium (pg 76) if you beat that DC then you have a "hunch" that something is there (see my earlier interpretation of Spot and Search for intentional similarities) but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack.. . .A spot check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible target's location, but that target still benefits from total concealment. How to you get "double-move" out of taking 20 times as long?Which is why, as it is a reflexive roll that the DM calls for - I would never allow someone to take 20.  YOu can only take 20 on skill check you are attempting to get right - to me that reads actively using the skill.</blockquote>

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