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<blockquote data-quote="Janx" data-source="post: 4537806" data-attributes="member: 8835">I'm getting the sense that's its not just the players, it's the DM.If you spend an hour chatting up NPCs that he put there (not just random patrons in a bar), and don't get the info you need, piss them off, or convince them to help you, the GM is NOT moving the story along.It would be very easy for a GM to not let the NPCs get convinced, and even, not get angry, unless you fight them.&nbsp; In fact, I would bet a GM that expected you to fight them, would act this way when faced with a party that doesn't start a fignt right away.If the DM is being verbose and cryptic with his descriptions of that which your PC would easily figure out, he's trying not to make a puzzle of out it for the players.&nbsp; This invariably fails when the players are too dumb, or the clues too useless.&nbsp; Oddly enough, it's more often the DM's fault, not the players for being dumb.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Janx, post: 4537806, member: 8835"] I'm getting the sense that's its not just the players, it's the DM. If you spend an hour chatting up NPCs that he put there (not just random patrons in a bar), and don't get the info you need, piss them off, or convince them to help you, the GM is NOT moving the story along. It would be very easy for a GM to not let the NPCs get convinced, and even, not get angry, unless you fight them. In fact, I would bet a GM that expected you to fight them, would act this way when faced with a party that doesn't start a fignt right away. If the DM is being verbose and cryptic with his descriptions of that which your PC would easily figure out, he's trying not to make a puzzle of out it for the players. This invariably fails when the players are too dumb, or the clues too useless. Oddly enough, it's more often the DM's fault, not the players for being dumb. [/QUOTE]

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