Taking ten...

[Tatsukun]

Does anyone have any good house rules for taking ten? I am thinking about adding a “you can’t take ten for opposed checks’ rule. Others?

-Tatsu

 

[Zad]

In my opinion, the rules really give you all the coverage you need. The thing I find is that a lot of people don't really read them very thoroughly.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't let someone take 10 on an opposed check. Are you looking at a specific problem? Take 10 is really just something that takes out the randomness. I do it on spot checks all the time.

 

[Tatsukun]

I guess I like some randomness in the game, it makes it more like real life.

I think that a rogue with a +10 use rope score will never fail to tie his shoes. That’s why I don’t use the “a 1 is always a fail” rule. But I also don't like the idea of that rogue never having to worry even a little bit about being seen by an enemy with a very close bonus.

If you have a +10 to move and hide, and a bunch of trolls have a +8 (with all the circumstance bonuses) to listen and spot you are still never, ever, going to be seen. I just think this makes skill points much more powerful. Maybe that’s OK and I just have to adjust to it.

But I would like to see a way to include freak occurrences. Just because you are 5th level doesn’t mean that you never, ever, step on a twig and get heard. Then again, I'm not sure how to fix it.

Hence, this little fishing-for-house-rules thread.

-Tatsu

 

[Phaedrus]

Isn't that what the "roll of 1 always fails" rule is for?

Even the best of the best mess up sometimes?

But if you take 10, you're not rolling, so no fail chance. Perhaps make everyone roll every time, just to verify they don't get a 1?

I'm taking 10 on this.
OK, roll to verify you don't get a 1.
A 19!!
Nope, you took 10, remember?

 

[Ace]

Isn't that what the "roll of 1 always fails" rule is for?

Even the best of the best mess up sometimes?

But if you take 10, you're not rolling, so no fail chance. Perhaps make everyone roll every time, just to verify they don't get a 1?

I'm taking 10 on this.
OK, roll to verify you don't get a 1.
A 19!!
Nope, you took 10, remember?

Thats not a good idea IMO. It bogs the game down and IME the less rolls the better. Also the 1 is always failure roll only applies to combat rolls and nothing else except possibly saving throws (I don't remember if thats the case) . It does not apply to skill rolls howver

IMO comes a point in which failure essentially becomes impossible

The worlds greatest rope artist (Rope Use 25) should not have to roll to tie a simple bowline. I can do it pretty easily I have Rope Use 3, maybe

Aragorn can always track a horse (DC15 say) through mud and so on. Sherlock Holmes is not going to miss a simple (DC10) clue 1 time in 20. At those odds heroic charcters look like clowns. Not good...

In Arcana Unearted (Monty Cooks book) there is a feat that allows an automatic "take 10" as the Rogue ability. I think this is a great idea myself, It allows faster play and more surety but at a small cost (1 feat)

 

[Ottergame]

The only thing that auto fails on a 1 is attack rolls and saving throws.

Skill checks, abilitity checks, and other throws NEVER automatically fail or succeed based solely on the die roll.

 

[Zad]

I guess I like some randomness in the game, it makes it more like real life.

In my opinion there's plenty of randomness. You can't use take-10 all the time after all. But that's me.

I think that a rogue with a +10 use rope score will never fail to tie his shoes. That’s why I don’t use the “a 1 is always a fail” rule.

See above - that rule does not apply to skill checks.

If you have a +10 to move and hide, and a bunch of trolls have a +8 (with all the circumstance bonuses) to listen and spot you are still never, ever, going to be seen.

Erm, how do you figure that?

First off, the rogue doesn't know the enemy bonus, so he's taking a risk if he takes 10. That's the tradeoff- you don't know if it's enough. Second, just because the rogue takes 10, ok he gets a 20. That doesn't mean the trolls take 10, or that they always take 10. If you roll for the trolls, they only have to roll a 12 and the rogue is busted.

I just think this makes skill points much more powerful. Maybe that’s OK and I just have to adjust to it.

Well the game is always an evolution. At low levels, skill points are insignificant - the randomness of the d20 carries more weight. But at higher levels, it matters less. Characters have skills they're good at, and most NPCs won't beat a character in a strong skill.

But I would like to see a way to include freak occurrences. Just because you are 5th level doesn’t mean that you never, ever, step on a twig and get heard. Then again, I'm not sure how to fix it.

But if you're not rushed, or in combat, why would you step on a twig? I guess I'm just not seeing the problem. Have you encountered specific issues with this in your game?

As a general rule, randomness inherently favors the npc's. Face it - most of them only ever exist in one encounter. Take 10 is a way to cut randomness. The flip side of this is that it's a consistent rule - the NPCs can do it too.

If you've had specific issues with it, it might help to provide them so we can target the advice better. Or if you're looking ahead to what you think might be a problem, I think I'd suggest you try it as written for a few sessions and see if it is as big a problem as you think.

 

[Tatsukun]

Well, as I posted in the rules forum, I think I WAS a little grumpy about my party having cleverly avoided a trap I worked hard on by just jumping over it. Now I see that that was part of the motivation, and I am over it.

I had forgotten that not knowing the DC for things makes the rogue’s life exciting. Now I remember ad now I am no longer so set against taking ten.

Thanks for getting me straight!

-Tatsu

 

[Phaedrus]

I think there should always be a chance of failure. Not 5% (1 in 20), but something... I don't know how to implement this fairly or without overly complicating things. It bugs me that high Tumble skill means you ALWAYS succeed at avoiding AOO's. It bugs me that epic thieves NEVER fail to disarm traps. That high level wizards always make their concentration checks.

I agree that you should never fail to tie a simple knot. Or that a smith should never fail to make a simple sword.

So how do you always succeed at simple things yet still risk failing at more difficult (less mundane) things?

 

[Tatsukun]

So how do you always succeed at simple things yet still risk failing at more difficult (less mundane) things?

That's why we use the rule that a natural 1 is a -10 and a natural 20 is a 30. If you have a +20 bonus to use rope you will never fail a DC 2 'tie your shoes' check, but you might fail a DC 15 "secure that sail" check.

We have used this rule for a while and it seems to really add to the excitement of rolling without giving EVERYTHING a %5 chance of failing or working (on a 1 or 20).

Now that I have used it for a while, I wouldn't mind trying out "a natural 1 is a -5 and a natural 20 is a 25" rule next time. We have one player (our barbarian) who seems to ALWAYS roll either a 1 or a 20. That -10 can be really hard to overcome.

BTW- We use this rule for every roll, attacks, saves, initiative, skills, etc. Other than the fact that the barbarian is always at either 23 or –7 on the initiative chart, it has worked well.

-Tatsu