Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Taking the 4e Plunge; Helpful hints?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6111501" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>I have a similar experience to yours as far as games go (just replace WEGSW with Shadowrun <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> ), but when I got back into gaming 3+ years ago it was mainly with D&D 4e. After running 4e at heroic and now paragon tier and having played in two other campaigns (one heroic, one paragon), I think I've got a good handle on 4e's strengths:</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You have a solid baseline when designing fights, so that you should always know roughly whether a fight you've planned is easy, average, hard, or TPK territory. Just recognize the DMG guidelines for XP budgets as guidelines and do what you like from there.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monsters are interesting and evocative in a fight, even (<strong>especially</strong>) lowly kobolds! Unfortunately, pre-Monster Vault monsters are mixed bag. Fortunately, it's easy to create or even ad-lib your own. As you get a feel for combat length, you may wish to lower standard monster HP depending on your group's damage output. Likewise, depending on your group, you may want to power up your solo monsters, particularly with greater condition-resistance.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It's a very rugged system that you can bend pretty far without breaking. Look at DMG page 42 about improvising player actions - to me that should be used just as often as PC powers (though, sadly, rarely is in my game). I recommend checking out my 4e DM Cheat Sheet: <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?307923-4e-DM-Cheat-Sheet" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?307923-4e-DM-Cheat-Sheet</a> And while you're at it you might want to check out Sly Flourish's cheat sheet as another option: <a href="http://slyflourish.com/master_dm_sheet.pdf" target="_blank">http://slyflourish.com/master_dm_sheet.pdf</a></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">When you get to the "Skill Challenges" section, just imagine a big fat strikethru thru "Skill" and replace it with "Creative" so you have "Creative Challenges". I've used "Creative Challenges" for mystery adventures, exploration, escaping a collapsing mine, disabling ritual foci, preparing for a siege, etc. DMG2 has a very good treatment of them. Any other books, blogs, or posts you read on the subject keep "Creative" as your guiding principle, don't get hung up on the details, and you'll do well. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">PCs feel like heroes from level 1 and can take a beating. Not everyone likes this, but I like the low-mortality, high-threat games that 4e encourages.</li> </ul><p></p><p>There are several drawbacks to 4e, however, and ways to work around them:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Combats tend to drag for larger groups, inexperienced groups, or certain 'trap' encounters. IMO the #1 contributor is excess player options. Still, there are some thing you can do as DM to speed combats up. First, consider implementing some kind of initiative/defense cards which can be hung over the DM screen. Here's an example: [SBLOCK]<img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/quickleaf/IMG_0700.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" />[/SBLOCK] Second, avoid higher-level monsters (esp. soldiers) because defenses scale faster than offense, and update older monsters to the MM3 guidelines (reduce defenses of elites/solos by 2, double static damage modifiers, maybe reduce HP 25%, and maybe replace resistance with something more like the volcanic dragon’s aura in MM3). Third, use the advice from the 4e DMG Encounter Building section; it actually has lots of great advice I've seen new DMs ignore, such as not overwhelming yourself with too many monster types in a single encounter.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There is no 'grid-free' combat out of the box. Actually, there's been a lot of work in the community on zone-based combats in 4e and they work pretty naturally. Draw out a bubble-diagram with several combat zones, giving each different properties and ways to move between them (possibly requiring skill checks), and let the players go to town. Ad lib ranges, perhaps using the generalized range categories from <a href="http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/12/fluid-4e-gridless-combat/" target="_blank">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/12/fluid-4e-gridless-combat/</a></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There is no such thing as an "entry level" class in 4e. The closest thing out there would be in the Essentials books: Slayer Fighter (Heroes of the Fallen Lands) or Scout Ranger (Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms). Don't know how experienced your daughter and rest of the players are, but I'd think the Essentials would be good for a younger crowd. Also, having color-coded organized power cards can help, but the DDi Character Builder routinely doesn't add everything into the math there should be. Besides custom-designing each character sheet or having players who are really on top of it, I've got no good answer for ya.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magic items mostly suck compared to older editions. If you want the over the top items of D&D lore you'll need to do a bit of digging (Mordenkainen's Magical Emporium is your friend here), find a well-designed artifact, or else make them up yourself.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There aren't as many good published adventures for 4e as there are for older editions. There are some good ones from ENWorld, Kobold Presss, and a handful by WotC, but they're few and far between.</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 6111501, member: 20323"] I have a similar experience to yours as far as games go (just replace WEGSW with Shadowrun ;) ), but when I got back into gaming 3+ years ago it was mainly with D&D 4e. After running 4e at heroic and now paragon tier and having played in two other campaigns (one heroic, one paragon), I think I've got a good handle on 4e's strengths: [LIST] [*]You have a solid baseline when designing fights, so that you should always know roughly whether a fight you've planned is easy, average, hard, or TPK territory. Just recognize the DMG guidelines for XP budgets as guidelines and do what you like from there. [*]Monsters are interesting and evocative in a fight, even ([B]especially[/B]) lowly kobolds! Unfortunately, pre-Monster Vault monsters are mixed bag. Fortunately, it's easy to create or even ad-lib your own. As you get a feel for combat length, you may wish to lower standard monster HP depending on your group's damage output. Likewise, depending on your group, you may want to power up your solo monsters, particularly with greater condition-resistance. [*]It's a very rugged system that you can bend pretty far without breaking. Look at DMG page 42 about improvising player actions - to me that should be used just as often as PC powers (though, sadly, rarely is in my game). I recommend checking out my 4e DM Cheat Sheet: [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?307923-4e-DM-Cheat-Sheet[/URL] And while you're at it you might want to check out Sly Flourish's cheat sheet as another option: [URL]http://slyflourish.com/master_dm_sheet.pdf[/URL] [*]When you get to the "Skill Challenges" section, just imagine a big fat strikethru thru "Skill" and replace it with "Creative" so you have "Creative Challenges". I've used "Creative Challenges" for mystery adventures, exploration, escaping a collapsing mine, disabling ritual foci, preparing for a siege, etc. DMG2 has a very good treatment of them. Any other books, blogs, or posts you read on the subject keep "Creative" as your guiding principle, don't get hung up on the details, and you'll do well. :) [*]PCs feel like heroes from level 1 and can take a beating. Not everyone likes this, but I like the low-mortality, high-threat games that 4e encourages. [/LIST] There are several drawbacks to 4e, however, and ways to work around them: [LIST] [*]Combats tend to drag for larger groups, inexperienced groups, or certain 'trap' encounters. IMO the #1 contributor is excess player options. Still, there are some thing you can do as DM to speed combats up. First, consider implementing some kind of initiative/defense cards which can be hung over the DM screen. Here's an example: [SBLOCK][IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/quickleaf/IMG_0700.jpg[/IMG][/SBLOCK] Second, avoid higher-level monsters (esp. soldiers) because defenses scale faster than offense, and update older monsters to the MM3 guidelines (reduce defenses of elites/solos by 2, double static damage modifiers, maybe reduce HP 25%, and maybe replace resistance with something more like the volcanic dragon’s aura in MM3). Third, use the advice from the 4e DMG Encounter Building section; it actually has lots of great advice I've seen new DMs ignore, such as not overwhelming yourself with too many monster types in a single encounter. [*]There is no 'grid-free' combat out of the box. Actually, there's been a lot of work in the community on zone-based combats in 4e and they work pretty naturally. Draw out a bubble-diagram with several combat zones, giving each different properties and ways to move between them (possibly requiring skill checks), and let the players go to town. Ad lib ranges, perhaps using the generalized range categories from [URL]http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/12/fluid-4e-gridless-combat/[/URL] [*]There is no such thing as an "entry level" class in 4e. The closest thing out there would be in the Essentials books: Slayer Fighter (Heroes of the Fallen Lands) or Scout Ranger (Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms). Don't know how experienced your daughter and rest of the players are, but I'd think the Essentials would be good for a younger crowd. Also, having color-coded organized power cards can help, but the DDi Character Builder routinely doesn't add everything into the math there should be. Besides custom-designing each character sheet or having players who are really on top of it, I've got no good answer for ya. [*]Magic items mostly suck compared to older editions. If you want the over the top items of D&D lore you'll need to do a bit of digging (Mordenkainen's Magical Emporium is your friend here), find a well-designed artifact, or else make them up yourself. [*]There aren't as many good published adventures for 4e as there are for older editions. There are some good ones from ENWorld, Kobold Presss, and a handful by WotC, but they're few and far between. [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Taking the 4e Plunge; Helpful hints?
Top