Taking the Dungeon out of D&D = more fun?

[MasterGarrow05]

I recently finished DMing KotS, and now another person in our group started Thunderspire Labyrinth last night. A big observation: the winding passages in many of the encounters in KotS and the beginning of TL are much MUCH less interesting than "open" encounters that happen on, say a large map.

(SPOILERS)

When I was DMing, by far the best experiences were the kobold encounters on the King's Road, the Dragon Burial Site, and of course the Irontooth fiasco, the Winterhaven cemetary, and the final encounter. The only reason the Shadow Cathedral wasn't that great was because the PCs ended up holing up in a tiny room in one corner and never managed to get out of into the greater room--indeed didn't really want to.

Every other encounter became either way too easy or way too boring for the PCs, who tended to either hole up or draw back out of an encounter area to bottle the enemy. Now, I'm not arguing that my PCs aren't using sound tactics, but the dungeon-y battles were far less interesting--tactically and otherwise--than the "big" encounters.

Now that I am playing in TL, and we have 3 melee-focused PCs, the two combat encounters we have been through were incredibly boring for at least 1 melee combatant at all times, as the battles tended to be fought in 2 square wide corridors with no means around the enemy and no maneuvering room. There was some shifting, mind you, the battles didn't really live and breath like the "big" battles did.

Like I said, we've just found them to be boring encounters that don't allow PCs, or even enemies at times, to take advantage of the wealth of new options in 4e.

Anyone else? Any suggestions? Is this just the way WotC likes its published adventures?

 

[Shabe]

From a dming perspective I've found exactly the same as you, maybe its group size / composition we have 2 defenders, 2 leaders a striker and a controller, the striker is a warlock so doesn't need to close into melee, and the defenders just sit there soaking things up while the cleric zaps with his rays and the warlord uses a glaive (reach weapon). Its just to the PCs advantage to bottle up a fight into a 10ft gap, 5ft is a bit trickier if the monsters have range attacks as they can easily take someone down in a round or two.

But yeah as a dm big open spaces are good. The entrance to the last kots encounter made the fight quite different from the others.

 

[fissionessence]

Depending on the monsters, they may not be willing to bottle themselves up in a hall like that. Maybe have them back out and just fire ranged attacks into the hallway full of PCs.

~

 

[darkadelphia]

Another thought (can't help with modules, but can for homebrew) if your PCs are bottling up, make the encounter more interesting by having superior terrain in the center of the encounter area. Perhaps a magical circle that grants bonuses to those standing in it, perhaps higher terrain that grants concealment against enemies below, perhaps the control panel to a trap--whatever. You can also (where appropriate) make your hallways 15 or 20' wide, D&D buildings are already absurdly proportioned 9/10 times, so wider hallways shouldn't make anyone too bothered.

In WoW (I know, WoW comparisons=bad) the dungeons are all massively scaled, especially raid dungeons. Very very rarely, you'll look around and realize that the room is just too big to make any sense, but for the most part, it looks good and makes the game fun.

 

[Syrsuro]

Movement is really important in 4E. Without room to move, many of the characters abilities and many of the creatures abilities become useless.

Take away the ability to move, and you lose a lot of the tactical depth.

That said - there are situations where that very lack of mobility is the point. Imagine the characters pinned in a narrow canyon/ hallway with ranged attackers above them raining down death upon them. Mobility is still important, but its important due to its lack (no where to go) and its difficulty (hard to get up there and attack the enemy).

But I'd keep encounters like that to a minimum. The rest of the time, encounters with space to move (although that need not be a single room - honeycombed spaces that allow enemies and pcs to duck around behind each other can also be fun. Just not a battle in a 10' straight corridor or a 30x30 room as you might have found back in 'the old days'.

Aside: One solution for the massive room syndrome is to rule that squares are actually 1 meter/3' on a side. This doesn't change much in the rules as distances are measured in squares. And it changes your hallways from a massive 10' wide to only 6' wide and it changes those 6sq x 6sq rooms from 30' x 30' to less than 20'x20'. I was going to do this, but found the old habits to hard to break and abandoned the attempt.

Carl

 

[DimitriX]

I've noticed similar problems. I've run KotS and another DM is running his own campaign. I've noticed in both situations that the combat usually ends up being in the doorway of the room in which the encounter has set up. I think that it is because in both cases initiative is rolled as soon as the door is opened. Once that happens, unless the defenders roll high and go before the monsters, then the monsters seem to charge into the party and the battle line is set in the doorway or the hallway leading into the room.

So, here are a few suggestions for homebrew adventures that might avoid this:

1. Give the monsters a reason to not charge. Maybe they have a barricade set up and will use ranged attacks or they have traps set up in the room that they want the party to step into.

2. Have initiative delayed. Maybe the monsters are laying in ambush and are waiting until the party is in the middle of the room so they can be surrounded or attacked at range from hiding.

3. Use two rooms. Have the first room be empty with the exception of a trap alarm that alerts monsters in the next room that some one is coming. This basically reverses the typical setup where the party is entering the room.

4. Have combat start as the party tries to leave the room. Perhaps the party has to enter a room, check it out, and as they leave, they realize the door has locked behind them. Then the monsters enter (phasing or insubstantial) or a trap is set off.

5. Play a variation of capture the flag. Maybe the most advantageous or least disadvantageous terrain is in the middle of the room. Wouldn't it be funny if a party member set off a trap that hit random squares except a couple of 2X2 patches in the middle of the room? The monsters and the party will want to be on one of those spots.

But, basically I've been a bit disappointed in the first couple of WotC adventures because there does seem to be a bit of railroading and the dungeon delve section is a repetitious series of "go into the room, kill the monsters, take the loot, rinse and repeat". And, considering I can't judge the quality of the adventure without buying it (because they come sealed in plastic), I don't think I'm going to spend anymore money on WotC adventures.

 

[renau1g]

My group doesn't enjoy Dungeons either, we're currently going through KoTS, but I'm actually not going to run the dungeon part... (I know it doesn't make much sense).

***Spoilers****
[sblock=Spoiler'd]
Instead, the portal already was opened by the enemy and undead have made it into town. We're based in FR in a homebrew town called Timmins (named after its founder, the PC Tim of Selune) and we just had the heroes protect the town from them.
[/sblock]

 

[Old Gumphrey]

I've had a similar problem. I had a group of 6 level 6 PCs completely dominate an encounter with 5 level 9 monsters by funneling them out through the mouth of a cave. It turned what could have been an exciting and deadly battle into a boring lol-fest as the monsters stupidly exited the cave one by one. With a collective intelligence of less than the wizard, they didn't really have the mental muscle to decide to go back inside and reset their ambush.

 

[Subedei]

The ground makes things less fun. I advocate a battle that takes place on half a dozen giant slabs of marble being hoisted up an unfinished 2,000ft tower by giant construction cranes during a thunderstorm and bolts of lightning randomly striking the unstable platforms with a stream of enemy soldiers repelling down ropes at a predetermined rate from airships hovering overhead, which also happen to be peppering the battle with cover fire. The PCs objective is to survive until they reach the top. Both PCs and their enemies have to consider: *Balancing weight on the stone slabs so they do not tip too far to one side *Not being sent flying off the slick surface of the wet marble to their deaths (see next consideration) *Using the uneven geography of the slabs (they're decorative, ornately carved, including massive relieve scenes and statues. You need to see these things from the ground, after all) to find cover from projectiles launched by ranged enemies on the airships and stone slabs, as well as to avoid situations where could easily slide off a slick, smooth surface. Also good for managing enemy positions etc. *Keeping options open by being able to move from slab to slab should one become incondusive to living. *Possibly destroying parts of the stone slabs or destroying the cables that hold them up to either tip one on it's side, or send it hurtling towards the ground below with the force of ten thousand cannonballs in a tactical way to either kill someone directly below on or kill some/all of those standing on top of one without endangering yourself or running out of ground to stand on. Bonus considerations: *Possibly commandeering an airship or getting on to the tower at a lower floor and then moving to the top inside it. Difficult, but with great risks come great rewards.