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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8091232" data-attributes="member: 16814">I'm glad I waited, because this does a good bit to helping me understand your position; the post above I really couldn't make heads or tails of about half of it -- just seemed like non-sequiturs and I didn't have enough clues to piece together what was behind it.&nbsp; But, now you've clearly stated it, and I might surprise you:&nbsp; I agree with your statement that PCs can be challenged in many ways AND that D&amp;D is fundamentally a resource management game.&nbsp; I say this because how the game plays is largely independent of what the RP goals of the game are.&nbsp; I can (and do) put the PCs in my game in terribly places of adversity, threatening the goals those PCs have and delivering bitter failures when earned alongside glorious success when earned.&nbsp; None of that has anything to do with resource management -- well said.&nbsp; However, I'm either doing this kind of play in spite of the rules (in which case I should play something else) or within them, in which case resource management is still a part of it.&nbsp; Even if I only toss a few easy fights into a scenario that never strenuously challenge the PCs, I still have lots of other things that do challenge them and those can hinge on the PCs applying their resources.&nbsp; As I mentioned above, take one of the better instances of the play you're talking about and swap in PCs with no limits on spell levels or slots and unlimited hp and see if the play turns out the same way.&nbsp; A lot of the things you're talking about actually occur in the space created by the resource management balance -- else the PCs would just try to murder their way to their goals or spell their way there.&nbsp; It's knowing that they do not have enough resources to do so that constrains play into the space where you, and I, like it.&nbsp; Frankly, it's this framing of play space by the resource management game structure that is most often the cause of dissatisfaction with high-level play -- the boundaries of what's possible via resource expenditure is greatly (and often suddenly) expanded but GMs still try to run the same kinds of things that worked before, only to see the fall apart and be dissatisfying.&nbsp; The space created by the resource game is almost as important as the parts of the game that use the resource game to run.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8091232, member: 16814"] I'm glad I waited, because this does a good bit to helping me understand your position; the post above I really couldn't make heads or tails of about half of it -- just seemed like non-sequiturs and I didn't have enough clues to piece together what was behind it. But, now you've clearly stated it, and I might surprise you: I agree with your statement that PCs can be challenged in many ways AND that D&D is fundamentally a resource management game. I say this because how the game plays is largely independent of what the RP goals of the game are. I can (and do) put the PCs in my game in terribly places of adversity, threatening the goals those PCs have and delivering bitter failures when earned alongside glorious success when earned. None of that has anything to do with resource management -- well said. However, I'm either doing this kind of play in spite of the rules (in which case I should play something else) or within them, in which case resource management is still a part of it. Even if I only toss a few easy fights into a scenario that never strenuously challenge the PCs, I still have lots of other things that do challenge them and those can hinge on the PCs applying their resources. As I mentioned above, take one of the better instances of the play you're talking about and swap in PCs with no limits on spell levels or slots and unlimited hp and see if the play turns out the same way. A lot of the things you're talking about actually occur in the space created by the resource management balance -- else the PCs would just try to murder their way to their goals or spell their way there. It's knowing that they do not have enough resources to do so that constrains play into the space where you, and I, like it. Frankly, it's this framing of play space by the resource management game structure that is most often the cause of dissatisfaction with high-level play -- the boundaries of what's possible via resource expenditure is greatly (and often suddenly) expanded but GMs still try to run the same kinds of things that worked before, only to see the fall apart and be dissatisfying. The space created by the resource game is almost as important as the parts of the game that use the resource game to run. [/QUOTE]

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