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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Justice and Rule" data-source="post: 8187053" data-attributes="member: 6778210">[ATTACH=full]132085[/ATTACH]I mean, these are really bad reasons. There are more buffs and debuffs, but for the most part it's because they are specifically defined before going to a spell or a monster's statblock. You need to remember the debuff itself? Well, that's not hard given that all the lowered ability ones are specifically tied to the number you get. And the idea that "they have different save conditions with different triggers" doesn't work when it's individualized to every spell and monster in 5E.Seriously, there are no specific rules for any Poison save: it can be done at the end of a turn, end of a minute, whatever. You can't just say "Okay, take an action to make a Fortitude Save" like Sickened or "Drop the number by 1" with Frightened or that Drained is lowered by a full night's rest in 5E; each effect can potentially have a different trigger and a different end condition, and while most of them might be similar, that doesn't mean any specific save condition will apply.But here's the thing: that works for 5E because that's how 5E is built.When it comes to broad, overarching systems, 5E really doesn't have many: classes are built to be almost completely unique to one another, and mechanics (while not necessarily unique) are generally individualized to monsters, spells, special actions, etc. It's basically a complete mishmash of ideas tossed into a pot, and that's what makes 5E both appealing and unappealing: that approach can make balance difficult for certain classes, spells, or monsters... but it also feels D&D as all hell, while still not being completely impenetrable as previous editions. That is the success of 5E.It's also why all these conditions don't really feel cluttered in PF2 while, if they were in 5E, they might: PF2 is a much more refined system, with a lot more focus on creating overarching mechanical systems that don't exist in 5E. You might not need a Slow condition in 5E because its effect there is harder to apply broadly because of the Action system. In PF2, though? Slowed slips in perfectly for a variety of things, largely because the Action system is built around being able to modify what you do in a way you can't in 5E. Doomed and Wounded don't make sense in 5E, whereas they are critical to giving a different feel to how PF2 combat and tactics work. And it's why certain 5E conditions wouldn't work in PF2, and why they need more specific effects: Poisoned in 5E wouldn't really work in PF2, because the debuff is so broad.This is the exact same argument as to why hundreds of feats might feel cluttered in a game like 5E, but most people here would say they feel just fine for PF2: the integration of feats (like conditions) into the game itself is very different between systems, meaning that direct comparisons of just numbers don't really work.</blockquote>

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