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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Justice and Rule" data-source="post: 8154868" data-attributes="member: 6778210">I mean, when he made his diplomacy shot, I feel like that came across as rather untrue. But that's just me.Ah God, you got me to watch this, or at least move through it quickly. And I'm going to disagree hard here, because his example really isn't that greatFirst off, the grapple/trip stuff is egregious. In PF2, you don't need to grapple the dude on the second one because it's unnecessary for the situation: he's already flat-footed and at a penalty to attack. Trip him and hit him: you'll have a MAP, but if you have an agile weapon it'll be only a -2 to hit with being flatfooted. Grappling isn't necessary."But he'll get up and make all that hard work useless compared to a regular attack!"Then let him. No matter the turn order, the Fighter will get his attacks in, because in getting up he'll trigger an Attack of Opportunity. That means the fighter will get to whap him at least once, and he's way more likely to hit than the Ranger. If the order of initiative is for the Fighter next, you've also increased his critical range, which is even better! Dude probably has Runes of Striking on his sword and will completely annihilate that thing with more of a critical chance.Meanwhile the 5E play isn't bad, but it's way more situational: you don't have to grapple necessarily (if you can get in an attack in 5E, you take the attack), but it's much more likely to need to because (unless the fighter has the Sentinel feat) if the wight is up next he doesn't trigger an AoO on standing. And that's the thing: it's got a lot more risk with less upside than PF2: while you are less likely to get hit, advantage on attacks means less because, well, Wights only have an AC of 14. You're not getting a huge expanded critical range, you're just getting a second chance at a possible critical. That's fine... but it's kind of lame.Also worth noting, you have to be at 5th level to do that with the 5E character because otherwise they could only do one of those anyways, and grapple is basically close to useless on its own (and I say this as a guy who plays a 5E 6 Shadow Monk/1 Rogue Dragonborn submission artist).But the problem here is that it's just very... bland whiteboxing. The Ranger is optimized for archery... well, okay, what are his skill feats? Does he have anything else to look at? Like, you can actually do things with other skills in combat for, and ignoring that part of PF2 kind of misses the point: there's a whole bunch of extra stuff you can do (stuff which adds crunch, but it's there). With the 5E ranger, well... there's just not much more there. There's just not much more off the page for that character.If this were the argument he made from the beginning (and in less of a kind of dickish comment from the first one), I'd honestly care less. I didn't really care about the Puffin one (except maybe for the "calculating your to-hit thing", which was kind of eye-rolly), but if was just "I want a more freeform game and I honestly don't get much out of it", I wouldn't have anything to say about it. But that's not how he made it out to be.</blockquote>

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