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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rystil Arden" data-source="post: 3310265" data-attributes="member: 29014">Both were the chances to hit.Assuming no tradeoffs and assuming capped bonuses to all (though I do admit more people cap Defense than Reflex saves) here it is *including* the Toughness save to avoid damage:Normal Ref Save Area vs No Evasion (though Evasion is a no-brainer):5% chance staggered+stunned+bruised25% chance stunned+bruised25% chance bruised45% absolutely nothingNormal Ref Save Area vs Evasion (spending just one more point)5% staggered+stunned+bruised5% stunned+bruised5% bruised85% nothingNormal Ref Save vs Improved Evasion (spending just one more point)0% staggered+stunned+bruised5% stunned+bruised5% bruised90% nothingAnd the Kicker, Normal Ref Save vs Improved Evasion but only +5 Ref Save (saving tons of points, having spent only 7)0% staggered+stunned+bruised17.5% stunned+bruised17.5% bruised65% nothing Targeted Area13.75% staggered+stunned+bruised 13.75% stunned+bruised13.75% bruised58.75% absolutely nothingSo basically, the Ref save part is doomed to fail compared to the Targeted Area--the only reason the numbers are even close is the half damage from a successful Ref save might still make a Toughness save fail with bad enough luck.  Of course, as PL increases towards 20, the half damage Reflex save area becomes a joke that can't even stun the enemies (unless they fail the save), and a single point or two for Evasion or Improved Evasion completely neuters the Reflex save area attack, whereas there is no such way to defeat the Targeted Area so easily.  Add to that the all-or-nothing nature of the Targeted Area (the Reflex save statistic calculation was much harder math because it required all sorts of contingencies and different DCs, but the Targeted Area is simple)--if you roll 10 or above on the d20, all of the other team has a 50% chance to be stunned or worse.  If you happen to roll a 20, the entire other team has a 75% chance to be stunned or worse.  If you roll below 10, your turn does nothing.  EDIT: Autofire (perhaps combined with Accurate Attack to make sure you hit) makes it horrifying even--I'll run the stats on that now actually.EDIT: D'oh!  All the numbers here are slightly off because I calculated as if failing by 5 was still a Bruise.</blockquote>

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