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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nork" data-source="post: 5126512" data-attributes="member: 59879">On another forum there was a 'what if' discussion about WotC picking up the shadowrun license if CGL loses it.  This resulted in a DnD4 vs SR4 discussion, and I noticed something in the discussion that seems to be of more general interest to RPGs.Some RPGs (SR4 is a good example) appear to be designed around the idea of 'shine moments'.  The idea is that your character is good at something, and they are so good at it that the other players at the table mechanically just can't have any real chance to effect something when its a challenge that your character is good at.  For example, if your character is the 'face', then nobody else at the table talks during tense or 'important' conversations (i.e. trying to talk your way into some location).  The idea is that this is the face's moment to shine, and the other characters should butt out.  At most these systems will allow other players to roll to see if they can add some small bonuses to the rolls of the character whose moment it is to shine.When combat happens, the combat monsters shine and everyone else waits.  When talking happens, the faces shine and everyone else waits.  When Y stuff happens, the Y characters shine and everyone else waits.  The party is a group of specialists, and they behave like a group of extremely powerful lone wolves that tag team.Then you've got other RPGs that are designed around a 'team effort' model.  DnD4 is good example of a 'team effort' game design.  No single character is good enough at something to handle a challenge all by themselves, but every character is good enough to contribute to the team effort required to overcome the challenge.  In combat you don't see X number of lone wolves all going their own way and doing their own thing while the non-combat characters sit on the sidelines.  All characters are equally good at contributing to combat, and all characters are not so good at combat that they don't need the help of another character to be effective at it.  Out of combat you are supposed to see several characters try to apply several different skills and roll dice to defeat a skill challenge.  Rituals are available to everyone now, and everyone can have different rituals, so its not the same character always doing the ritual while everyone else waits.Having played WoW quite a bit, which is a very 'team effort' oriented dungeon crawl type game.  For example, in WoW, if your warrior charges right at some monsters and then hammers the ground to unleash a thunderclap and hit all of them while letting out a demoralizing battle shout, and then smacks one in the face with his shield, your warrior then wants to use shield block because it has a 40 second cooldown and using it at that point will drastically reduce the damage you take for a little while.  You do this because it will make your healer not need to start healing you right away, thereby making the healer less threatening to the monsters (and giving you time to convince the monsters that your their #1 biggest problem), and because at this point in combat your taking the most incoming damage, so reducing the damage you take now reduces the total healing that you will need thereby conserving the healers resources.   Keeping a player alive is not the leader/healer's job.  It is a team effort between all players.  The tank/defender needs to know when to use their abilities to make the leader/healer's job easier.  The strikers/dps need to know how to keep themselves out of too much trouble while focusing their damage on the right target and using abilities to shut down monsters trying to do something that will make life too difficult for group.'Team effort' games are designed around the principle that your actions are in support of your team-mates, and your goal is to make their lives easier, and their goal is to make your life easier, until the final mass of mutual support overcomes the challenge.  They don't portray 'James Bond-esque' super hero characters well, but they portray coordinated teamwork better.  The table dynamics are different too, now that I think about it.  I've seen a lot of players involved in side conversations for extended periods in SR4 games when the game is dealing with stuff their characters are not good at.  I've hardly ever seen extended side conversations at DnD4 games because the game runs on small contributions by everyone to do everything.  I've noticed that DnD4 sessions can feel grueling on a level that I've never felt with a SR4 session. I'm thinking that might be because different players are not taking 10-15 minute breaks where they talk about something else while the session is progressing.Anyways, I thought it was an interesting observation.</blockquote>

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