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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9500131" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>Which is something I specifically pointed out and why I said to bump Lore up one spot. My advice still leaves Tandem above Cutting Words.</p><p></p><p>We should still keep in mind that Cutting Words (and Combat Inspiration) becomes available to help other party members at 3rd level, and you're comparing it to 6th level abilities. Dance Bards don't really add anything for the party at that level. Glamour Bards do but you seemed to have left Mantle of Inspiration out of the discussion.</p><p></p><p>Lore Bards also gain those extra skill proficiencies that can help with a group check at 3rd level, which I mentioned earlier, even if it's a small benefit that doesn't see much use in that way.</p><p></p><p>Tandem doesn't come until 6th level when Magical Discoveries happens, and Magical Discoveries can definitely help the party. I often take Prayer of Healing as a support spell, and that adds healing plus grants a short rest benefit. I'm positive the Fighters and Monks and Warlocks like that, and recovering my own BI dice to hand more out at the same time. Not every player is going to add more support spells but the option to do so is definitely better than not having the option for other subclasses.</p><p></p><p>Those extra spells prepared aren't just only useful for a few levels. It's always going to be two more prepared spells than any other bard, and levels 6 through 10 are a quarter of the total levels in the game as well as the majority of most campaigns.</p><p></p><p>I don't think it makes any sense to rank Valor Bards whose only ability added to help the party is Combat Inspiration. Cutting Words effectively does the same thing with regards to deflecting an attack, but Cutting Words is more party oriented in preventing damage than Combat Inspiration is in adding damage. There's literally no reason to rank Valor Bards above Lore Bards regarding party interaction mechanics.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except Tandem has no control over which attacks against whom. The ability to choose against which attack it's applied carries some weight over the possibility of some random attacks at the end of the combat. That's also a consideration here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You kind of missed the point where you aren't applying your own argument (uses of Cutting Words costing those other BI uses). Tandem Footwork still costs that use that won't trigger Agile Strikes. </p><p></p><p>For Agile Strikes to even work the Dance Bard needs someone to attack. Are you waiting for combat to start before handing out those BI dice one at a time, or are you loading up the party before the fight so BI is already available because it lasts an hour? Because waiting to hand out BI dice for a limited number of attacks strikes me as the opposite of teamwork, and not waiting makes those attacks moot.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Oohhh, I missed that. That is shiny. :-D</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 9500131, member: 6750235"] Which is something I specifically pointed out and why I said to bump Lore up one spot. My advice still leaves Tandem above Cutting Words. We should still keep in mind that Cutting Words (and Combat Inspiration) becomes available to help other party members at 3rd level, and you're comparing it to 6th level abilities. Dance Bards don't really add anything for the party at that level. Glamour Bards do but you seemed to have left Mantle of Inspiration out of the discussion. Lore Bards also gain those extra skill proficiencies that can help with a group check at 3rd level, which I mentioned earlier, even if it's a small benefit that doesn't see much use in that way. Tandem doesn't come until 6th level when Magical Discoveries happens, and Magical Discoveries can definitely help the party. I often take Prayer of Healing as a support spell, and that adds healing plus grants a short rest benefit. I'm positive the Fighters and Monks and Warlocks like that, and recovering my own BI dice to hand more out at the same time. Not every player is going to add more support spells but the option to do so is definitely better than not having the option for other subclasses. Those extra spells prepared aren't just only useful for a few levels. It's always going to be two more prepared spells than any other bard, and levels 6 through 10 are a quarter of the total levels in the game as well as the majority of most campaigns. I don't think it makes any sense to rank Valor Bards whose only ability added to help the party is Combat Inspiration. Cutting Words effectively does the same thing with regards to deflecting an attack, but Cutting Words is more party oriented in preventing damage than Combat Inspiration is in adding damage. There's literally no reason to rank Valor Bards above Lore Bards regarding party interaction mechanics. Except Tandem has no control over which attacks against whom. The ability to choose against which attack it's applied carries some weight over the possibility of some random attacks at the end of the combat. That's also a consideration here. You kind of missed the point where you aren't applying your own argument (uses of Cutting Words costing those other BI uses). Tandem Footwork still costs that use that won't trigger Agile Strikes. For Agile Strikes to even work the Dance Bard needs someone to attack. Are you waiting for combat to start before handing out those BI dice one at a time, or are you loading up the party before the fight so BI is already available because it lasts an hour? Because waiting to hand out BI dice for a limited number of attacks strikes me as the opposite of teamwork, and not waiting makes those attacks moot. Oohhh, I missed that. That is shiny. :-D [/QUOTE]
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