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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9501542" data-attributes="member: 6750235">Magical Secrets requires replacing other lower level bard spells for those combos and higher level spells prepared don't come at a fast rate.Magical Discoveries can give support spells or other spells like Spirit Guardians that you were using in your grappling examples for those grappling and moving characters.Magical Discoveries adds 2 spells at 6th level.  Magical Secrets adds 1 at 10th level, 1 at 11th level, 1 at 13th level, 15th level, and one each at 17th thru 20th levels that the Lore Bard also gets.  We don't really see that lesser impact from Magical Discoveries until at least 15th level but it always has some impact.Additional support spell options is definitely a plus for Lore Bards.They might make their save in which case they would have made their save regardless of which bard subclass tries this and then they might attack the bard and that opponent might hit the bard, and then the Lore Bard might choose to use Cutting Secrets as an option to deflect the attack to match the Dance or Valor AC benefits, or might heal it later instead.There's too much "might" in your scenario in what's a risk vs reward choice the player makes.  It's not unreasonable or unrealistic for a Lore Bard to move in and also attempt the opportunity attack from Dissonant Whispers, especially if that same Lore Bard picked up Warcaster and can apply a spell as the opportunity attack instead of a weapon attack.The fighter that gets saved from dropping can gain multiple full turns.  That's BETTERER.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Being missed once can be the difference between attacking 3 times or attacking 0 times or multiple turns.  The idea is the Lore Bard is using Cutting Words when it does make that difference.The entire party being missed 3 times because the Cutting Words prevented the opponent from escaping a zone that's Restraining it or some similar effect that relies on an ability check isn't just missing once.  It's literally interacting with other party members in teamwork for a better effect.Cutting Words has some obvious advantages in the ability to hamper opponents directly that Dance and Valor Bards do not.  At least Glamour Bards can fuels additional charm effects with those BI uses.Sure, if you want.  But your house rules aren't really relevant to the evaluation.  This was a comparison of subclasses and how those subclass features contribute to teamwork.My argument is Lore Bards should be above Valor Bards in this regard.  Your argument seems to be some weird axe to grind against Lore Bards.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Valor Bards as a class add Combat Inspiration which can be used as an AC bonus or damage bonus.  That's it.  Their other benefits are useful but not in a teamwork sense.Lore Bards can...<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">add a (very minor) benefit to group checks through bonus skill proficiencies</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">use Cutting Words to directly hamper opponents in attack rolls, ability checks, or damage, which are more options than Combat Inspiration and not available to Valor Bards</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">gain bonus spells prepared that can add room for additional support spells or grab additional support spells from other lists</li> </ul>My advice would still be to rank Lore Bards above Valor Bards as a teamwork subclass option.  They clearly add more BI options and opportunities, and the extra spells prepared are clearly beneficial.</blockquote>

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