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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9502930" data-attributes="member: 6750235">Note: there is good natured ribbing in some of the rhetorical questions.  Try to read it in the intended tone. ;-)What did you think I meant when I said time and gold? ;-)Glyphs are situational but it's being used within one of those situations in the given example.  Even without the glyph being used for whatever reason that bard has a choice of pass without trace or invisibility, whichever is more applicable at the time and either of which lasts up to an hour.But if you have the time and money it's definitely an option to add a glyph as a deliberate choice to help.Bards have to "burn" (weird language choice) expertise on something.  Stealth isn't a bad choice for stealth build.  ;-)It is a choice denied Druids, however.  Just like glyph of warding is denied to druids and invisibility is only available through a specific feat; bardic inspiration doesn't exist for the druid to better facilitate the group check.Stealth and scouting turn into a "don't split the party moment" and bards are better equipped to help the entire party with stealth by using the same spell and adding more options.Lore bards are going to "burn" (weird language choice) their bonus spells prepped on something.  Using them for stealth on a stealth build isn't a poor choice.  Is your argument that a player who makes a stealthy bard isn't doing it right by selecting expertise and spells that facilitate being a stealthy bard? ;-)Bards can't do everything, no arguments, but they can do stealth.What does a cleric have to do with a comparison between a bard and a druid?  Are you backtracking because a trickery cleric also has access to pass without trace, invisibility, and glyph of warding? ;-)The trickery cleric is similar to the bard but the bard has the possibility of advantage to cover blessing of the trickster but the cleric needs a feat to add expertise, lacks bardic inspiration to hand out to the party, and can't pick up arcane eye.I think the trickery cleric is better than the druid too.Find familiar is available through a background feat, ritual caster feat, as an alternative to arcane eye, or later with magical secrets.  It's easy to get for just about any player who wants it and easier for lore bard's.  The opportunity cost is the concern, not the ease of access.My example used arcane eye instead.  Arcane eye is available to wizards and bards.  It's not available to druids or clerics.There's a lot to be said for wild shape.  That is a strong argument for druids when it comes to stealth.  But how does it help the party?  Wild shape is also limited in forms now and comes with a deliberate choice for stealth.Spells like pass without trace, upcast invisibility, and upcast enhance ability (something else available in both cases but seldom mentioned) can help the party but those aren't exclusive to the druid.A bard doesn't need to be "going flat out".  Choosing skills, expertise, and spells a a basic part of the class as is handing out bardic inspiration.  Their only choosing this stealthy style within those choices.  That's also a basic part of the kit.We can point out that druids (or trickery clerics) have a high WIS for perception but bards tend to have a higher DEX and also have expertise.  High perception also doesn't help the party sneak.It's basic for a bard to hand out some inspiration dice to the group and upcast invisibility.  It's easier for a lore bard to supplement spell support.  The spell glyphs are more "going flat out" because of the time and gold invested, or arcane eye because of the opportunity cost and level of the spell, but they're still easy options.I might be at least vaguely familiar with the positives and negatives of playing bards.  ;-)</blockquote>

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