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Message: <blockquote data-quote="aramis erak" data-source="post: 8387022" data-attributes="member: 6779310">You've gone  into erroneous assumptions and overt misconstruction and hostility.Apparent Misassumption 1: That I think innovation is a positive thing.Apparent Misassumption 2: That quality and innovation are linked in a positive reinforcementApparent Misassumption 3: that I've not read several variants of several of the games.I really don't like the wave of open source games - too often, they are very minor changes to the formula. Some go too far with innovations, and confuse purchasers, either through complexity (DW), or difference (Sentinel Comics).Some don't go far enough.But if you're using an engine from another game, you're clearly NOT trying for Innovative, but for Familiar to Extant Fans. Just like all those d20 flavors from 12 to 20 years ago, or the current crop of 5E variants.By comparison, neither Pugmire nor the new SG1 are terribly innovative. Both  decouple specific feats from the specific level advancements... so you're making a choice every level.  That's genuinely not a new thing; it was partially done in the early 1990's in AD&D2e PO:S&P, and partially done before that in Dark Sun, as well as being done in a number of heartbreakers... and also done in T20: Traveller's Handbook ... So, Innovative? no. Good? I like it! Both have a lot going for them. I honestly like Pugmire and SG1 better than D&D 5E... The design teams took or reinvented concepts already known, but mixed them in the right ways for their settings.Hell, some of the worst games written have been attempts to be innovative. FATAL, for example.As for Kids on Bikes: I read it once. I found it unmemorable. I remember that I did read it... and that's about it.And I've read at least a dozen AWE/PBTA games. AW itself was innovative. DW added so much; it's innovative, but also a slog to read. MASHed was the most polished and accessible version I've read, and the theme drips from the typeset... but it adds (AFAICT) no new mechanics, just new setting specific applications. The others? not mechanically innovative, either.Then again, an Innovative PBTA-derived game does itself a disservice if it labels itself as such, because the mechanical variation outside roles is pretty low across the entire PBTA/AWE ecosphere. The design goal was to put a mechanical laser focus on what's important to the setting. It makes for easy adaptations... but not for true innovation....In the same way any d20 STL compliant isn't likely to have much mechanical innovation; those that did often suffered.</blockquote>

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