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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mephista" data-source="post: 7225506" data-attributes="member: 6786252">So, sounds like its less of a dungeon issue and more of a class design issue then?    And, once they cast fly and take off, flying creatures of the mists attack them.   Both ghosts and many kinds of demons can fly, after all, so its not like its a stretch to assume they'll pick up on someone approaching with zero cover.  If anything, its more dangerous, because all the demons would swarm them at once.   A hint or two towards that effect, and tada.  Suddenly the PCs will either not fly, or just as possibly, risk it and quite possibly lose some of their comrads, which is what a good dungeon is supposed to do to begin with.Or, you know, a storm with violent winds that makes navigation impossible once inside it. Honestly, this maze of yours sounds like it has a number of issues in the first place that hurts it as a good/cool dungeon.  What about a group that uses hiding techniques to slip their way through?   Clearly, there's already some light that can bleed through the mists - what stops the PCs from just using cantrips to light up the entire mist and see all the dangers clear as day?    What about a very simple Magic Circle or Protection spell?   No worries about ghostly demons then. How many people do you have with Fly, anwyays?  Sorcerers, wizards and warlocks have it on their spell list, and its Concentration.     Assuming four PCs, how are you going to get the entire party across using Fly?  Chances are, you are not going to have two Sorcerers in your party, both of which are Twinning the spell.  Even if we assume a Sorcerer and a Lore / level 10+ Bard (who happens to have Fly), lets say, that's still only three people that can fly.  We going to leave the fourth behind?   And that's a rather extreme case - while its easy for a wizard to prepare the spell, its going to be a rather competative slot, leaving a lot of question if they're going to even have the spell for the dungeon.   You create a very atmospheric little scene there.  But as an argument?  Its so full of holes that spagetti strainers are jealous.  Pretty much worthless. Sounds like a larger problem with class balance than specific spells having an effect on dungeon design.   The stereotypical paladin cavalier. Not really.  But the fun thing about 5e is that Paladin, as a class, is not the same thing as a 3e or 4e paladin.  Its a hybrid of paladin, avenger, warden and a few others here and there.  An avenger are classically a highly agile warrior (and usually not in heavy armor), and its also the only paladin with Misty Step.  I have absolutely no problem with this.  Fits their theme perfectly.    I have never had a problem with the so callled 5 minute work day.  Never had a group do it, never was in a group that did it.  And even if the party did?  We play in a living world - the bad guys don't stop and wait for PCs to rest. In short, my takeaway is thatthis thread is actually not about dungeon design as much as just another angle to complain about spellcasters in general.</blockquote>

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