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Tell me about The Abomination Vaults
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<blockquote data-quote="kenada" data-source="post: 8213222" data-attributes="member: 70468"><p>It’s probably worth moving the discussion into it’s own topic since this was originally about Abomination Vaults. At the same time, I’m not sure how much legs the discussion has. I’m going to consolidate some and try to keep responses brief.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I’m reminded of a conversation I had here a few months back regarding OSE. Someone was trying warn about some of the problems OSE had that later games solved, and I’m like: no, that’s a feature. In PF2’s case, I don’t agree PF2 is as constraining regarding rulings and such that you perceive it as; but I’ll concede a lot of that comes down to perception and how one uses the system.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Paizo designed PF2 to support the adventures they wanted to write. I haven’t seen anything that strikes me as markedly different from PF1, so I expect they’d have written more or less the same ones even if PF2 were just a *book for 5e.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The thing that drives predictability in old-school D&D is the absence of critical hits, which didn’t become a core feature of the game until 3e. Since you died at 0 hit points, you needed to be careful, but you could assess how safe it was to remain in combat. Critical hits mess that up, and easier dying rules remove the incentive to retreat.</p><p></p><p>Where I’m going with this for PF2 is that PF2 embraces the big hits. Combat feels dangerous again, but instead of being the result of systems that work together to discourage careless play, it’s just part of the flavor. That would be fine, but now players have fewer signals to tell them when they should retreat.</p><p></p><p>Not having that indicator would be fine if the game just assumed you were always supposed to win fights, but it causes problems when encounters snowball or when you throw an impossible encounter at the PCs (as the GMG suggests for e.g., hexploration). Because you can be dropped at any time, the only indicator you have is just how easily the enemy hits you (or crits you!).</p><p></p><p>Well, there is one more indicator: foreshadowing. If you know an impossible encounter is coming, or encounters have snowballed, then you need to signal that to the PCs, so they can take measures or try to avoid it. This gets back to what [USER=7026314]@!DWolf[/USER] was discussing earlier regarding narrative difficulty control. I’d prefer in-combat signals too (beyond obliterating the fighter and letting everyone flee in a panic), but that’s not how things work.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="kenada, post: 8213222, member: 70468"] It’s probably worth moving the discussion into it’s own topic since this was originally about Abomination Vaults. At the same time, I’m not sure how much legs the discussion has. I’m going to consolidate some and try to keep responses brief. I’m reminded of a conversation I had here a few months back regarding OSE. Someone was trying warn about some of the problems OSE had that later games solved, and I’m like: no, that’s a feature. In PF2’s case, I don’t agree PF2 is as constraining regarding rulings and such that you perceive it as; but I’ll concede a lot of that comes down to perception and how one uses the system. Paizo designed PF2 to support the adventures they wanted to write. I haven’t seen anything that strikes me as markedly different from PF1, so I expect they’d have written more or less the same ones even if PF2 were just a *book for 5e. The thing that drives predictability in old-school D&D is the absence of critical hits, which didn’t become a core feature of the game until 3e. Since you died at 0 hit points, you needed to be careful, but you could assess how safe it was to remain in combat. Critical hits mess that up, and easier dying rules remove the incentive to retreat. Where I’m going with this for PF2 is that PF2 embraces the big hits. Combat feels dangerous again, but instead of being the result of systems that work together to discourage careless play, it’s just part of the flavor. That would be fine, but now players have fewer signals to tell them when they should retreat. Not having that indicator would be fine if the game just assumed you were always supposed to win fights, but it causes problems when encounters snowball or when you throw an impossible encounter at the PCs (as the GMG suggests for e.g., hexploration). Because you can be dropped at any time, the only indicator you have is just how easily the enemy hits you (or crits you!). Well, there is one more indicator: foreshadowing. If you know an impossible encounter is coming, or encounters have snowballed, then you need to signal that to the PCs, so they can take measures or try to avoid it. This gets back to what [USER=7026314]@!DWolf[/USER] was discussing earlier regarding narrative difficulty control. I’d prefer in-combat signals too (beyond obliterating the fighter and letting everyone flee in a panic), but that’s not how things work. [/QUOTE]
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