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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 2966590" data-attributes="member: 22779">I really have two issues with the idea that the presence of railroading is entirely determined by the players.Firstly, as I've said numerous times already, there is a fair chance that what appears to be railroading may not be.  In the doppleganger example above, this is 100% NOT railroading.  However, by HappyElf's definition, if I, as the player, think it is, it becomes railroading.  The fact that I as the player don't have complete access to information doesn't matter.  I think I'm being railroaded, therefore I am.  Despite the fact that I am completely mistaken and that I am not being railroaded, rather there is more information here than I am aware of, it doesn't matter.  I send up the flag of railroad, and that's the end of the story.However, there is also a second problem with this.  If railroading is determined by the players, then what happens if I, as DM, railroad without their knowledge?For example, if I make a dungeon with 15 rooms.  I then make 15 encounters that could fit into any of the 15 rooms.  The first room the party enters becomes encounter 1, second becomes encounter 2 and so on.  I place certain items in previous encounters that will be used in future encounters.  Perhap the key found in encounter 6 opens the chest in encounter 8.This is 100% a railroad.  There is zero player choice.  It doesn't matter where the players choose to go, they have no chance to influence the outcome of the dungeon.  By any reasonable definition, this is a railroad, I think we can agree on that.However, the players may never know.  Unless they look at my adventure notes, they may be completely oblivious to the tracks.  In fact, if I do it fairly well, they really have no reason to even suspect that they are being railroaded.So, if the players do not perceive the railroad, does that mean I haven't railroaded them?  I don't think so.  My above railroad dungeon doesn't suddenly become not a railroad because the players aren't perceptive.  That's silly.  If I set up an encounter that will occur no matter what the players do, that's railroading.  Just because the players aren't aware of it, doesn't make it any less of a railroad.I understand what you are saying HappyElf.  In fact, for the most part, I agree with you.  The DM is unfairly exercising power over the players=railroading.  I can agree with that.  What I disagree with is the idea that the player's are the sole judges of railroading.</blockquote>

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