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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 2967508" data-attributes="member: 29398">Not just that, but it's rolling enough 20's that it might just win!I repeat my earlier point that much of the problem comes down to trust.  The doppelganger example is a good one here: when things start going sideways for the PC's (in this case, multiple charm attempts that should have worked but didn't...and by the way, how do you know if your charm worked or not unless you try to interact with the target afterwards?) there has to be trust that the DM has a valid reason for such.  Here, it's a doppelganger.  In another similar case it might be a device of charm resistance.  In a third case it might be that having this particular person charmed to the party would destroy the whole plot...some might consider this last to be a railroad, but I'm cool with it as long as a) it's smoothly handled so as to look like an in-game issue, and b) it leads to a good adventure.Thing is, if the DM has spent the time to design a worthwhile adventure, the players should in fairness at least try to play through it.  If it proves hopeless, then have the party abandon it in character...but at least try it! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Lanefan</blockquote>