Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="deleteme123456" data-source="post: 4575324" data-attributes="member: 65832">I did some quick math without accounting for magic items (since everyone's DM is different in what they allow), and I worked from a base of 45% to hit with no proficiency. Assume all characters started with an 18 in their primary stat and increase every time. The only feats allowed are weapon proficiency, weapon focus, agile tempest, lethal hunter, deadly axe, hammer rhythm, scimitar dance, two weapon fighting, two weapon defense, [weapon type] mastery. (Armor feats that don't change your damage are allowed too, but really don't change much.) This baseline allows for a comparison without some potentially over-powered items and feats, since I don't think I've heard anyone clamoring for banning any of these, except possibly the double weapons, and this will give some insight into whether that's useful or not. For cases that it matters, a secondary attribute is assumed to be 2 below (mod 1 below) your primary attribute.I ignore paragon path selection because in most cases, you could pick up any path you wanted (ignoring the current problems with ranger PP and ranger multiclass)We'll compare armor against somebody in Scale without specialization and no shield as a baseline, values will be + or - vs that guy.Set 1 (Level 11: +3 weapons, +2 focus, +5 ability mod)Case 1:The Mordenkrad Fighter with hammer rhythmTo hit bonus: +3 (+2 weapon +1 class)Normal (non-crit) hit %: 55%[W] value (avg/max): 8/12Normal hit avg dmg: 18 = 8 (wpn) + 2 (focus) + 3 (magic) + 5 (str)Crit %: 5%Crit avg (assumes +1d6 per plus from magic weapon): 32.5 (=12 + 10 (see previous) + 3.5*3)Miss %: 40%Miss dmg: 4Total avg dmg / turn: 13.125Weapon feats: Mordenkrad prof., Hammer rhythm, WF: HammersArmor: PlateArmor feats: PlateArmor vs Scale guy: +1Total feats: 5 (out of 7)For the others, I'll not spell everything out as much:Tempest w/Dual Short Swords1-Hit: 60%1-Hit dmg: 16.5 = 3.5 (wpn) + 3 (magic) + 2 (focus) + 3 (class/agile)1-Crit dmg: 29.5avg dmg/turn: 23.19 [TWF bonus approximated as "+0.5 if at least one hit"]Wpn feats: focus: light blade, twfArmor feats: NoneArmor type: ChainAC vs Scale guy: Even (TWD makes it up, and gives you a +reflex to boot)Feats used: 1! out of 7Tempest with a "fixed" double sword that has no off-hand but is a heavy blade on both ends:Bottom line: 20.69 (so if you add one off-hand and simply argue that half your hits are with that hand so you can get 1.5 bonus damage on average if you hit at least once, it comes to 22.01)Wpn feats: 2AC feats: NoneAC type: ChainAC vs Scale guy: +1 (defensive weapon and TWD)Tempest with a "RAW?" double sword that is off-hand and heavy on both ends:24.59Feats: same as aboveRanger with double sword (assume one weapon focus feat cover both ends):27.4625Feats: prof: dobule sword, focus: heavy blade, lethal hunter, chain, scale, twf, twd [at least he got toughness for free... so now his HP are closer to the fighter!]AC vs Scale guy: +2 (but used every feat!)Ranger with double axe (gives up scale prof for deadly axe):27.45875 (so close... but you'll be better at epic!)AC vs Scale guy: +1Ranger with two waraxes:28.75875AC Vs Scale guy: even (no defensive weapon, used deadly axe instead of scale)Ranger with two bastard swords:28.7625 (again so very close)AC Vs Scale guy: +1 (he can use scale prof. instead of deadly axe)Ranger with two scimitars and the dance:28.14AC vs Scale guy: +1 (weapon proficiency -> scimitar dance)That fighter is getting awfully close to those strikers. And most feats or items that could help one, help both (except the horribly broken +wis vs marked enemies <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />).How's it look at level 21 with demigod, +5 weapons, +8 ability, 2[w] attacks, and +3 focus? Everyone gets their mastery feat as well so crit is 19-20.The morderkrad guy is very sad and doesn't want to talk about it. 24.55.The tempest fighters are a little lower now, although a d8 offhand weapon would still be quite powerful. The 2 shortswords guy can do 40.04 while the d8 double offhand (etc, bascially the most broken version of a double sword) guy does 43.04.The double sword ranger does 48.655. Double axe is better at 50.56, and two waraxe is better yet at 53.56. Scimitars and bastard swords are very very close* at 51.025 and 51.455.*High crit is interesting. Do you get to add +enh and +focus (etc.) again? I wasn't sure, but could adjust the spreadsheet if needed.</blockquote>

Verification