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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 1290252" data-attributes="member: 2067">Iffy....I'd be tempted to give up the weapon damage (since they can't really wield weapons effectively) and just give them upped swarm damage (say, d8's instead of d6's). I'd also let them keep a reach, let them grapple (being overrun by a mob is a common method of death here in College Sportsville, after all...<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />), keep them closer to the Swarm in that they don't have size penalties for AC, and are affected largely as if they're Medium Humanoids instead of whatever it is they are. I'd also try to keep the 10-ft. space, though I could see upping it...Where'd you get +15 attack from? Why the +20 HD? Just pure 'beefing'? Can't they have less HD (since they're not getting killed to a man, usually....)?So, extrapolating from the swarm rules:Mobs are closely-packed, disorganized creatures that move an attack as a single unit. They have a single HD, hp, Init, speed, and AC, and saves.We'll say for each 10-ft. space a mob has about 75 people (extraploating from the 300 Tinies in the same space). There's so many, because they're crawling all over each other, and whatever they're hitting.Because they're bigger, a mob doesn't have to move into a space to attack -- it has the same reach as the constituent creatures (5 ft. in this case). They also don't take reduced weapon damage. They still take extra damage from area effects (+50%). They're only succeptible to winds as normal critters are. They deal damage from a mob attack instead of a normal attack, much like a swarm does. Though all d6's for swarms become d8's in the hands of a mob (or higher, for bigger critters, maybe). They do this damage automatically. They can still distract like a swarm.We'll let 'em grapple, too...in order to beat a mob in a grapple, you'd have to beat the grapple checks of as many creatures that can grapple you at once(four of the same size). When a mob grapples, however, it is never considered grappled.So an orc mob would be something like:Medium Humanoid (mob)Hit Dice: 8d8+8 (44 hp)Initiative: +0Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)Armor Class: 13 (+3 armor), touch 10, flat-footed 13Base Attack/Grapple:+1/+4Attack/Full Attack: Mob (2d8)Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.It'd have saves, skills, ext. like an 8 HD humanoid, and all the other qualities of orcs and mobs to boot. CR maybe about 5-ish sounds decent. They've got high HP, and some impressive saves, but 2-3 fireballs, and they've bit the dust, and they don't pack that big of a wallop (not much more than two individual orcs, really).BIG orc hordes can thus be made of multiple orc mobs put alongside each other.</blockquote>

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