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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ashockney" data-source="post: 121235" data-attributes="member: 1363">Our gaming group is moving into it's 4th and 5th 3rd Ed campaigns (we've seen how all the core rules work) and in these new campaigns, the various templates found in the DMG and in the Forgotten Realms seem to be very popular. One of the things our groups DM's have been discussing is the difficulty in balancing the templates, espcially with other character types (or worse, other template characters). One suggestion that has been made, which seems to be getting a great deal of interest is the concept of treating templates almost like prestige classes. For example, your player wants to play a frost                  giant? Sure, this is a 10 ECL (let's say). So break down all the values of the frost giant and allow it to be taken as part of prestige                  class abilities, spreading out the power through multiple levels. This becomes a little more difficult to assess from a                roleplaying aspect (although not impossible) but seems to bring about a great deal more fairness to the balancing. Further, it has been discussed that we may perhaps "tier" the level abilities to ensure that certain abilities are only available at certain points in a campaign. For example, you may have Tier I (available, and/or MUST, be taken at character creation), Tier 2, character                 must be an ECL of 1st to 5th level, Tier 3, character must be of 6th to 10th level, Tier 4, character must be of 11th to 15th level, and Tier 5, character must be of 15th to 20th level to obtain these abilities.So here's how it might look for a Frost Giant (this is JUST an example, not saying these are real numbers):Tier I (required at character creation):Size: Large (-1 size to AC, 5' reach, bonus to grapple checks, wield large/huge weapons, etc.), base move 30'Attributes: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 ChaSkill & Feat Bonus: n/aLanguage: Giant (base)Resistance: Cold Subtype (immune to cold, double damage from fire w/o save)Darkvision: 60'Type: GiantTier II (Prerequisites: Frost Giant Racial Template Tier I and, must be ECL 1 or higher)1st Level:2d8 hp, +0 BAB, 2/0/0, 2nd Level: 3d8 hp, +1 BAB, 3/0/0, +1 Nat armor3rd Level: 4d8 hp, +2 BAB, 3/1/1, +6 Str4th Level: 5d8 hp, +3 BAB, 4/1/1, +5' Base MoveTier III (Prerequisites: FG RT Tier I, II through 4th level, and must be ECL of 6 or higher)5th Level: 6d8 hp, +3 BAB, 4/1/1, 10' Reach, +2 Nat Armor6th Level: 8d8 hp, +4 BAB, 5/2/2, +4 Con, 7th Level: 9d8 hp, +5 BAB, 5/2/2, +5' Base Move8th Level: 10d8 hp, +6 BAB, 6/2/2, +3 to natural armorTier IV (Prerequisites: FG RT Tier I, II, and III through 8th Level, and must be ECL of 11 or higher)9th Level: 11d8 hp, +6 BAB, 6/3/3, +8 Str10th Level: 12d8 hp, +7 BAB, 7/3/3, +6 ConTier Vn/aSkills: 2 pts/level(+Int Mod), per Fighter ClassNet effect: 12d8 hp, +7 BAB, 7/3/3 Saves, +8 Str, +6 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha, +3 nat armor, 40' base move, 10' reach, Cold Subtype, Darkvision, Size LargeYou now get all this for 10 levels, in addition to skills, feats, and normal character development attribute bonuses (as does the rest of the party). These abilities are guaranteed 100% of the time (vs. magic items, anti-magic, rage, frenzy, spells, etc.). There are clearly some advantages and drawbacks. The power of the levels is better distributed to the abilities of a group at a "given" level in the campaign (instead of front-loading it all up at once). None of the abilities of this particular template/race are tough enough to warrant Tier V (ie, innate heal, innate limited wish, etc.)This still calls for the DM to make some judgement/roleplaying calls (you are learning to master your skills (size/strength) as                 you grow older/taller. You will have difficulty interacting with people in civilzed towns (intimidation, etc.), and have difficulty equipping armor and weapons of your size (eventually this challenge becomes finding "magical" weapons and armor).What do you think?</blockquote>

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