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<blockquote data-quote="grodog" data-source="post: 5183730" data-attributes="member: 1613">I think that elements of ToEE are good, but that it just doesn't hold together sufficiently in play, without a lot of up-front prep work.&nbsp; I'm sure it can be made to shine, and to shine brightly, with a DM who's willing to make that effort, but the module doesn't (atm, anyway) inspire such efforts from me.&nbsp; From my POV:- ToEE vs. S4/WG4:&nbsp; both S4 and WG4 are much-more straightforward modules, more along the line lines of the G/D modules:&nbsp; &quot;go forth, kill the monsters, and keep any stuff you find&quot; (G/D) vs. &quot;go forth, find the stuff, and kill some monsters along the way&quot; (S4/WG4).&nbsp; I like those modules, and EGG's designs in such instances are top-notch (S1 falls into a similar vein, in my mind)- I think ToEE vs. B2 is a much-more apt comparison:&nbsp; it's more open-ended than the other two modules, and is also clearly meant to be customized (DM has to name the NPCs, figure out if any of the Keep's inhabitants are in league with Caves of Chaos folks, place it relative to some nearby? civilization, etc.), and also features the need for PCs to make repeated forays into the environs from the nearby safe haven---if they try to tackle B2 or ToEE all at once, they're doomed to failure.&nbsp; FWIW, while I like B2, it's not at the top of my preferred Gygax modules, although I do certainly use it more often than ToEE.I feel as much at home here as on K&amp;K or DF, so I can't agree with you on that one, Doug.&nbsp; Ditto.This sounds like what I was trying to describe above:&nbsp; when the DM makes the extra effort with ToEE I think it really can shine.&nbsp; Perhaps ToEE, unlike many other modules from BITD, really did require a more mature DM to pull it off vs. the usual teen ager running it??</blockquote>

[QUOTE="grodog, post: 5183730, member: 1613"] I think that elements of ToEE are good, but that it just doesn't hold together sufficiently in play, without a lot of up-front prep work. I'm sure it can be made to shine, and to shine brightly, with a DM who's willing to make that effort, but the module doesn't (atm, anyway) inspire such efforts from me. From my POV: - ToEE vs. S4/WG4: both S4 and WG4 are much-more straightforward modules, more along the line lines of the G/D modules: "go forth, kill the monsters, and keep any stuff you find" (G/D) vs. "go forth, find the stuff, and kill some monsters along the way" (S4/WG4). I like those modules, and EGG's designs in such instances are top-notch (S1 falls into a similar vein, in my mind) - I think ToEE vs. B2 is a much-more apt comparison: it's more open-ended than the other two modules, and is also clearly meant to be customized (DM has to name the NPCs, figure out if any of the Keep's inhabitants are in league with Caves of Chaos folks, place it relative to some nearby? civilization, etc.), and also features the need for PCs to make repeated forays into the environs from the nearby safe haven---if they try to tackle B2 or ToEE all at once, they're doomed to failure. FWIW, while I like B2, it's not at the top of my preferred Gygax modules, although I do certainly use it more often than ToEE. I feel as much at home here as on K&K or DF, so I can't agree with you on that one, Doug. Ditto. This sounds like what I was trying to describe above: when the DM makes the extra effort with ToEE I think it really can shine. Perhaps ToEE, unlike many other modules from BITD, really did require a more mature DM to pull it off vs. the usual teen ager running it?? [/QUOTE]

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