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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7730892" data-attributes="member: 42582">Many RPGs seem to involve an inherent tension (if not outright contradiction) in how they present themselves - they suggest the game has neither winners nor losers; yet PC death is a clear loss condition!Furthermore, there is an awkwardness in a team game which is player primarily socially rather than competitiiely, when one player loses while the rest of the team is still playing the game. Especially if the play time remaining is measure in weeks or perhaps years. Is the player whose PC has died meant to just not turn up to the game anymore?Assuming that player keeps turning up, and so runs a new PC, is that PC going to be an ineffective contributer (eg starting at 1t level with a 10th level party)? In which case, why bother? Is the player who loses first stuck on a death spiral, where s/he keeps losing because his/her PC can't keep up?If the answer to the above is &quot;quasi-geometric XP tables means the new PC catches up quickly&quot; then the natural question becomes - why not just skip the &quot;catching up&quot; phase, and have the new PC come in at the same level, or - say - one level behind (as per 3E's raise dead spell)? At which point, PC death ceases to be such an extreme loss condition, or maybe isn't even really a loss condition at all, but something more like an instance of resource expenditure.In other words, I don't think changes in the way D&amp;D handles PC death are mostly attributable in changes in the personalities of game players. I think they reflect a natural dynamic in the evolution of RPGs in response to the tension inherent in denying the game has a loss condition while building in a loss condition that is barely workable.(There are other solutions, obviously: just to give one example, if you limit PC growth to 3rd level, a la Moldvay Basic, then treating PC death as a loss condition which necessitates a new PC actually becomes workable. But D&amp;D has opted not to confine the power curve in that way.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7730892, member: 42582"] Many RPGs seem to involve an inherent tension (if not outright contradiction) in how they present themselves - they suggest the game has neither winners nor losers; yet PC death is a clear loss condition! Furthermore, there is an awkwardness in a team game which is player primarily socially rather than competitiiely, when one player loses while the rest of the team is still playing the game. Especially if the play time remaining is measure in weeks or perhaps years. Is the player whose PC has died meant to just not turn up to the game anymore? Assuming that player keeps turning up, and so runs a new PC, is that PC going to be an ineffective contributer (eg starting at 1t level with a 10th level party)? In which case, why bother? Is the player who loses first stuck on a death spiral, where s/he keeps losing because his/her PC can't keep up? If the answer to the above is "quasi-geometric XP tables means the new PC catches up quickly" then the natural question becomes - why not just skip the "catching up" phase, and have the new PC come in at the same level, or - say - one level behind (as per 3E's raise dead spell)? At which point, PC death ceases to be such an extreme loss condition, or maybe isn't even really a loss condition at all, but something more like an instance of resource expenditure. In other words, I don't think changes in the way D&D handles PC death are mostly attributable in changes in the personalities of game players. I think they reflect a natural dynamic in the evolution of RPGs in response to the tension inherent in denying the game has a loss condition while building in a loss condition that is barely workable. (There are other solutions, obviously: just to give one example, if you limit PC growth to 3rd level, a la Moldvay Basic, then treating PC death as a loss condition which necessitates a new PC actually becomes workable. But D&D has opted not to confine the power curve in that way.) [/QUOTE]

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