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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7730913" data-attributes="member: 22779">This is a really excellent point.&nbsp; Someone mentioned Savage Tides AP and it has an excellent scenario - defend Farshore.&nbsp; You amass victory points by doing certain tasks - finding and making allies, building defenses, doing this or that all within a specific time limit - that determine the end result of the scenario.&nbsp; You could plausibly do lots of killing and still wind up with a fairly Pyrrhic victory if you weren't careful.So, yes, it's entirely possible for the PC's to be constantly &quot;winning&quot; and still lose.The problem with this model is that it's ultimately futile.&nbsp; It's a treadmill of kills stuff, take its loot so you can kill bigger stuff and take its loot, round and round.&nbsp; It's a very solid model, to be fair.&nbsp; Tons and tons of games are built on this.&nbsp; But, it does get rather stale after a while.&nbsp; There's a reason we don't see a lot of games following this model anymore.&nbsp; For one, computer games will give you a pretty good&nbsp; experience for this without all the hassle of trying to play a F2F RPG.&nbsp; And, really, this model, while you still see it from time to time, doesn't really appeal to gamers, apparently, who want a bit more depth to their play than just murderhoboes killing and looting. While I'm pretty unabashedly gamist in my approach to RPG's, even I'll balk at the idea that we should go back to the idea that the primary win/loss conditions in an RPG should be loot or death.&nbsp; And, really, as soon as you move away from D&amp;D, this gets even more apparent.&nbsp; What's the point of death or kill and loot in my GURPS Mars game based on Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars trilogy where the point of the game is to establish a Mars base?Or, even going back to the good old days, take Star Frontiers.&nbsp; You are Star Law Rangers.&nbsp; Your gear is assigned to you by Star Law.&nbsp; You are, essentialy, Old West sheriffs.&nbsp; If something takes away your laser gun, you just go requisition another laser gun.&nbsp; You aren't really supposed to be putting criminals in the ground (although that does happen a lot).&nbsp; You are supposed to bring them in for justice.My problem with this article is it seems to presume that RPG=D&amp;D.&nbsp; Sorry, that ship has sailed a LONG time ago.&nbsp; How does Kill and Loot even remotely relate to my Dread game?&nbsp; Or Blades in the Dark?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7730913, member: 22779"] This is a really excellent point. Someone mentioned Savage Tides AP and it has an excellent scenario - defend Farshore. You amass victory points by doing certain tasks - finding and making allies, building defenses, doing this or that all within a specific time limit - that determine the end result of the scenario. You could plausibly do lots of killing and still wind up with a fairly Pyrrhic victory if you weren't careful. So, yes, it's entirely possible for the PC's to be constantly "winning" and still lose. The problem with this model is that it's ultimately futile. It's a treadmill of kills stuff, take its loot so you can kill bigger stuff and take its loot, round and round. It's a very solid model, to be fair. Tons and tons of games are built on this. But, it does get rather stale after a while. There's a reason we don't see a lot of games following this model anymore. For one, computer games will give you a pretty good experience for this without all the hassle of trying to play a F2F RPG. And, really, this model, while you still see it from time to time, doesn't really appeal to gamers, apparently, who want a bit more depth to their play than just murderhoboes killing and looting. While I'm pretty unabashedly gamist in my approach to RPG's, even I'll balk at the idea that we should go back to the idea that the primary win/loss conditions in an RPG should be loot or death. And, really, as soon as you move away from D&D, this gets even more apparent. What's the point of death or kill and loot in my GURPS Mars game based on Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars trilogy where the point of the game is to establish a Mars base? Or, even going back to the good old days, take Star Frontiers. You are Star Law Rangers. Your gear is assigned to you by Star Law. You are, essentialy, Old West sheriffs. If something takes away your laser gun, you just go requisition another laser gun. You aren't really supposed to be putting criminals in the ground (although that does happen a lot). You are supposed to bring them in for justice. My problem with this article is it seems to presume that RPG=D&D. Sorry, that ship has sailed a LONG time ago. How does Kill and Loot even remotely relate to my Dread game? Or Blades in the Dark? [/QUOTE]

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