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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7730922" data-attributes="member: 42582">I agree that there a really stark limits on the classic D&D model, and that it doesn't easily generalise beyond D&D. (Or even to much of D&D post-1980.)I'm not sure that classic game is entirely replacable by a computer, though - when it comes to engaging with the fiction, a GM is still better able (I think) to adjudicate unexpected moves (like "creative spellcasting") than a computer is. So for those who enjoy classic D&D, face-to-face RPGing has something distinctive to offer.But for those who want something else - which I'm pretty confident is a majority of contemporary RPGers - what exactly does that look like?If we replace the goal of the classic D&D model, which is engage fiction to (i) survive and (ii) find treasure so as to earn XP, with an alternative goal of engage fiction to [do X] to earn VP, then what else has to change? First and foremost, the players need ways to do X.Most of the debates around railroading, player-driven vs GM-driven games, etc, can be seen through the prism of issues like Who decides what X is? How do the players learn what X is? How do the PCs (and thereby the players) get the resources necessary to do X? Who judges whether the players have succeeded in doing X? If the answers are, the GM decides, the players learn by trying stuff and seeing what happens as the GM narrates outcomes, it's in the gift of the GM and the GM judges, perhaps using some skill checks and free RP as a guide, then we get the makings of the classic railroad. Thus a lot of indie-type RPG design can be seen as reacting against one or more of those answers.(And if the answer to How do the PCs get the necessary resources is "Kill all these orcs to get the McGuffin", then we've basically got the fighting of the classic game without the degree of player strategy and skill. It's a tactical skirmish game with a veneer of story laid over the top.)I think the OP is motivated, in part, by a feeling that there's no answer to these questions about doing X which are consistent with RPGs remaining a game. I think that feeling is wrong; but if all I knew of post-classic D&D was the Dragonlance modules, that my opinion might be different!</blockquote>

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