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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ridley's Cohort" data-source="post: 656310" data-attributes="member: 545">Sorry, dudes.  I refuse to participate in the smackdown arguments.I may be in the minority, but after considering it a while I think the argument that Quicken proves Haste is too powerful has real merit.My experience with Haste is that it doesn't kill the game as a 3rd level spell, but it probably should be a 4th level spell.  But my experience is  primarily in levels 1-12.  The argument I have seen is that high level characters always need Haste or they are doomed seems believable.I suggest the following "theorem": If Quicken is not more valuable than Haste in a short combat, then Haste is too powerful relative to Quicken.Let's consider a 3 round combat, 12th level characters.The Quicken Wizard gets off 6 spells, 3 high level plus 3 low level (2nd or lower).The Haste Wizard gets off 5 net spells (not counting the Haste itself), 5 spells of any level.That looks like a strong win for the Haste Wizard to me -- I don't think 3 low level spells (e.g. Magic Missile) are going to be close to the power of 2 high level spells (e.g. Empowered Fireball).  It becomes absurd at lower level because Quicken is near useless.  I think it also is worse for Quicken at very high levels -- while the Quickened  Polymorph Other or Cone of Cold comes into play, the Hasted Wizard could be throwing Gate and Gate again.  Powerful items at very high levels argue for Haste as better.If you do not believe me yet, consider that the Hasted Wizard gets better flexibility.  The Quicken Wizard has locked in his choices by spell selection.  The Hasted Wizard can perfectly well dig into his lower spell slots if he see a good opportunity.BTW, it goes without saying that Haste is much better than Quicken in long combats at all levels.My conclusion: Either Quicken needs to be made much easier or Haste needs to be made less powerful.Followup conclusion: Weaken Haste because Quicken is balanced relative to Empower and Maximize (both of which I think are reasonable as is).</blockquote>

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