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<blockquote data-quote="Pax" data-source="post: 658959" data-attributes="member: 6875">Nice way to over-polarise the situation.You will note, when I cited the issue with fireballs, I said only four targets hit (in a 20-foot-radius, or fourty foot diameter, globe!!) ... four targets ... and the wizard passes the fighter.&nbsp; Not only that, leaves him in the dust.That, as it turns out, is dependant on how the GM handles his &quot;OpFor units&quot; (IOW, hostile NPCs and such).&nbsp; If said OpFor simply lines up to trade blows with the PCs, then yes, the fighters have the advantage.And a very boring game ensues.However, using terrain, tactics, environment, and similar issues can change things.&nbsp; Especially if combats don't end up &quot;let's line up and trade blows&quot; affairs.Fireballs, at 10d6, do an average of 35 points.&nbsp; Saves reduce this to 17.&nbsp; Thus, for five targets it's more like 85 points (assuming everything makes it's save, BTW, IMO accounts for the few SR-check failures, as some enemies might escape harm entirely, while otehrs take the FULL brunt of the fireball).THEN figure the Fighter (prudently protected from fire magic and already standing amidst those five hapless badguys) getting that cleave (or even great cleave) on the now-softened-up enemies, during his or her full-attack.Wizards, sorcerors, and so on are not meant to be point-click-and-kill characters.&nbsp; They're meant to pump damage out to lots of folks, and the fighters step in and finish off whatever's still standing, and/or tie down the main opposition while the spellcasters and archers pick off the underlings and/or support said fighter.By the by, the &quot;Gang up on one until it drops&quot; issue is IMO a flaw of the d20 combat mechanic.&nbsp; I prefer GURPS' method -- you take penalties, based on how much damage you've taken since your last action.&nbsp; So, sandpapering lots of foes at once is a very good thing (e.g., instantly dropping one HT(10) enemy with 60 points of damage might not be as helpful as making TWENTY enemies suffer a 3-point penalty apiece on their next actions ...).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Pax, post: 658959, member: 6875"] Nice way to over-polarise the situation. You will note, when I cited the issue with fireballs, I said only [b]four[/b] targets hit (in a 20-foot-radius, or [b]fourty foot diameter[/b], globe!!) ... four targets ... and the wizard passes the fighter. Not only that, leaves him in the dust. That, as it turns out, is dependant on how the GM handles his "OpFor units" (IOW, hostile NPCs and such). If said OpFor simply lines up to trade blows with the PCs, then yes, the fighters have the advantage. And a very boring game ensues. However, using terrain, tactics, environment, and similar issues can change things. Especially if combats don't end up "let's line up and trade blows" affairs. Fireballs, at 10d6, do an average of 35 points. Saves reduce this to 17. Thus, for five targets it's more like 85 points (assuming [b]everything[/b] makes it's save, BTW, IMO accounts for the few SR-check failures, as some enemies might escape harm entirely, while otehrs take the FULL brunt of the fireball). THEN figure the Fighter (prudently protected from fire magic and already standing amidst those five hapless badguys) [b]getting[/b] that cleave (or even great cleave) on the now-softened-up enemies, during his or her full-attack. Wizards, sorcerors, and so on are not [b]meant[/b] to be point-click-and-kill characters. They're meant to pump damage out to lots of folks, and the [b]fighters[/b] step in and finish off whatever's still standing, and/or tie down the main opposition while the spellcasters and archers pick off the underlings and/or support said fighter. By the by, the "Gang up on one until it drops" issue is IMO a [b]flaw[/b] of the d20 combat mechanic. I prefer GURPS' method -- you take penalties, based on how much damage you've taken since your last action. So, sandpapering lots of foes at once is a [b]very[/b] good thing (e.g., instantly dropping one HT(10) enemy with 60 points of damage might not be as helpful as making TWENTY enemies suffer a 3-point penalty apiece on their next actions ...). [/QUOTE]

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